A crafts forum. CraftBanter

If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below.

Go Back   Home » CraftBanter forum » Craft related newsgroups » Beads
Site Map Home Register Authors List Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read Web Partners

FMG now has Hill Tribe Silver!



 
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #21  
Old July 24th 03, 06:07 PM
Dr. Sooz
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Thank you, Marjean -- immediate Bead Notes addition.

The glass bead industry in the Czech Republic is well established and has
been there for over 100 years (if not longer). While the firepolished and
pressed glass is made in factories, there are many factories and none of
them would be considered huge by American standards. The lampwork beads are

~SNIPPED~


~~
Sooz
-------
ESBC
~ Dr. Sooz's Bead Links
http://airandearth.netfirms.com/soozlinkslist.html
~ Bead Notes: Beading information A - Z
http://www.lampwork.net/beadnotes.html

Ads
  #22  
Old July 24th 03, 09:55 PM
Kandice Seeber
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Well, that's very good to know. I am not sure how I feel about this. I can
understand and respect the fact that these people are skilled and taught
from a very young age. But honestly, the beads did not look to me like
something made from a highly skilled artisan. Of course this is totally
different from the type of lampwork sold by FMG, and that is what I was
getting at. If people are buying beads from a person obtaining them from a
tribal community that prides themselves on well made beads and has been
doing it for decades, then that's wonderful. I am also glad to hear that
these tribal communtities are not selling their stuff to FMG or other large
retailers - they would likely not get near enough money for their beads.

--
Kandice Seeber
Air & Earth Designs
http://www.lampwork.net

The glass bead industry in the Czech Republic is well established and has
been there for over 100 years (if not longer). While the firepolished and
pressed glass is made in factories, there are many factories and none of
them would be considered huge by American standards. The lampwork beads

are
a completely different story - or at least they used to be. Lampworking

is
a cottage industry in the Czech Republic utilizing many individual

families
making beads at home. The techniques are passed from generation to
generation starting at a very young age. These people are VERY skilled
artisans and by their own country's standards, very well paid. They make
beads only in the styles that have been mainstays of the industry for
decades, so they may look 'mass-produced.' For them, the beads are a
product to make well but they are NOT necessarily an expression of an
artist's sensibility.

The beads are contracted for through either the factory owners or other
middlemen - the families rarely, if ever, produce beads for direct
marketing. As for quality, I can only assume that their glass industry
knows how to make beads that last considering how long it's existed in

that
area. If they didn't make a quality product, it wouldn't have flourished

as
it has.

Mj



"Kandice Seeber" wrote in message
. net...
the beads are probably made in a high production factory by
people who are making very little money. If the lady you buy from is

honest
about where the beads come from, then I see no problem with it - other

than
the fact that the beads are most likely not annealed and may not last

very
long. They are definitely not artisan made, but produced quickly and
cheaply. But there's no problem with that in my mind. It's when the

vender
lies about how and where they are getting the beads, and pretends like

they
are artisan made that I have a problem.





  #23  
Old July 24th 03, 10:20 PM
Mj
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

As I said in my comments, the styles shown in vj's scans are typical of
those the Czech bead industry has made for decades. Just because they don't
make beads like people do here in the states (like yours for instance)
doesn't mean these people aren't highly skilled. They are making a product
for sale in a foreign country (usually) that is supposed to be uniform in
size and pattern from piece to piece - and to make them quickly enough to
make money for their family. Again as I said - these people aren't making
beads to express their artistic sensibilities, but to make money to support
their families. That doesn't make them any less skilled than lampworkers
here - or incapable of turning out something that looks like a Corina bead,
which I suspect many of these people could do in a heartbeat.

As to lampwork knock-offs from India, I have the same problem as you do with
FMG's description of 'artisan made' - clearly they're not. I suspect that
we'll soon see imitation Hilltribe silver styles coming out of India too,
much like all the cast "Bali" that comes from there now.

Mj


"Kandice Seeber" wrote in message
. net...
Well, that's very good to know. I am not sure how I feel about this. I can
understand and respect the fact that these people are skilled and taught
from a very young age. But honestly, the beads did not look to me like
something made from a highly skilled artisan. Of course this is totally
different from the type of lampwork sold by FMG, and that is what I was
getting at. If people are buying beads from a person obtaining them from

a
tribal community that prides themselves on well made beads and has been
doing it for decades, then that's wonderful. I am also glad to hear that
these tribal communtities are not selling their stuff to FMG or other

large
retailers - they would likely not get near enough money for their beads.



  #24  
Old July 24th 03, 10:51 PM
Kandice Seeber
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Oh, I can definitely see these! They are very pretty. And low prices, too.
Is this the lady you buy from? I like her site.

--
Kandice Seeber
Air & Earth Designs
http://www.lampwork.net

http://www.wildthingsbeads.com/beads...ork/czech.html

she has better pictures than i do.

they're nothing like what i buy from American artists. they're totally
different.


-----------
@vicki [SnuggleWench]
(Books) http://www.booksnbytes.com
(Jewelry) http://www.vickijean.com
-----------
The Bill of Rights - Void where prohibited by Law.
Regime Change in 2004 - The life you save may be your own.



  #25  
Old July 24th 03, 11:04 PM
Kandice Seeber
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

No, I didn't mean that these people were not capable of doing highly skilled
beads - not at all. What I meant was that it is hard to see from the beads
shown that the people making them are highly skilled artisans. Because
those beads are, like you said, made quickly and uniformly so as to be cost
effective for the families making them. The beads look tons better than the
crap sold in FMG - especially on the website VJ showed me. But that's
pretty much all a normal consumer has to go by - the look and durability of
the bead.

To be quite honest, I have used these beads before, but didn't know what
they were, a long time ago. They were pretty, so I bought them.

I guess, to me, when someone tells me that a bead is artisan made, I think
of an artisan as someone, an individual, who makes the lampwork to express
their artistic sensibilities, as you put it, and not for the mass market.

I also want to point out that sometimes on this group and in other places,
people assume that lampwork artists only exist here in the states (or it
appears that's what they assume, because of their comments). There are also
lampwork artists in other countries - Australia, Great Britain, Germany and
Japan, for example.

It's too bad that these artisans in the Czech Republic can't make more money
at what they do, like the artists in the States and in the above countries.
When I saw the low low prices on these Czech Lampwork beads just now, it
made me sad. Those bicones had to take longer than a few seconds to make,
and they're only just over $1 each. I really hope that in Czech standards,
that's a lot.

**sigh** I do apologize for making comments before I was properly informed.
Clearly Czech Lampwork was not something I knew a whole lot about. I know
now.
--
Kandice Seeber
Air & Earth Designs
http://www.lampwork.net

As I said in my comments, the styles shown in vj's scans are typical of
those the Czech bead industry has made for decades. Just because they

don't
make beads like people do here in the states (like yours for instance)
doesn't mean these people aren't highly skilled. They are making a

product
for sale in a foreign country (usually) that is supposed to be uniform in
size and pattern from piece to piece - and to make them quickly enough to
make money for their family. Again as I said - these people aren't making
beads to express their artistic sensibilities, but to make money to

support
their families. That doesn't make them any less skilled than lampworkers
here - or incapable of turning out something that looks like a Corina

bead,
which I suspect many of these people could do in a heartbeat.

As to lampwork knock-offs from India, I have the same problem as you do

with
FMG's description of 'artisan made' - clearly they're not. I suspect that
we'll soon see imitation Hilltribe silver styles coming out of India too,
much like all the cast "Bali" that comes from there now.

Mj


"Kandice Seeber" wrote in message
. net...
Well, that's very good to know. I am not sure how I feel about this. I

can
understand and respect the fact that these people are skilled and taught
from a very young age. But honestly, the beads did not look to me like
something made from a highly skilled artisan. Of course this is totally
different from the type of lampwork sold by FMG, and that is what I was
getting at. If people are buying beads from a person obtaining them

from
a
tribal community that prides themselves on well made beads and has been
doing it for decades, then that's wonderful. I am also glad to hear

that
these tribal communtities are not selling their stuff to FMG or other

large
retailers - they would likely not get near enough money for their beads.





  #26  
Old July 25th 03, 12:28 AM
Kandice Seeber
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Really interesting and informative post, Faith.

--
Kandice Seeber
Air & Earth Designs
http://www.lampwork.net

Well said Maryjean - well defined explanation!

FWIW (and keep this in mind guys) there's a dynamic difference
between the way European glass beadmakers and the new generation
of US beadmakers view 'production work' vs 'art beads'...

Keep in mind I'm second generation glassworker trained in
working glass (and beadmaking) by apprenticship via my father
and my father trained under a European master trained by his
father before him in Europe - so my window into this topic is
admittedly vastly different than most....

Generally speaking, in my experience, what I have observed is:

European glass workers (they seldom refer to themselves as artists)
HIGHLY value skill, precison, expertise, experience, & the level of
experience/mastery of who they studied with. Much as with my
father and I the common (uncommon in the states) is generational
passing of knowledge and the demanding perfection that accompanies
it. Form and function are of UTMOST concern - technique is stressed
over 'interpertation' or art. In fact at some points, those in
apprenticeship are not not considered prepared to venture outside
the level of skill they are currently mastering. Sounds harsh but
believe me, you truly learn when so deeply dedicating your efforts
to technique and outcome. So pride and purpose for many European
glassworkers/beadmakers is to create a technically perfect bead or
item upon demand, over and over, flawlessly. It's a different sort
of 'bar' than we think of here in the US where art glass, especially
bead making has been born in the warmer glow of expression, personal
statement and variation. IMHO, the ideal way to work glass is
with an eye, hand and heart for both - true dedication to technique
and deep dedication to finding your own voice in working glass.
Bring both to a soft simmer, then begin to sell what you create....

I've spent my life dancing on both sides of the line. I know the
profound dedication of training that is considered a 'trust' -
part of keeping what was historically a trade and is now an art
(and was ALWAYS magical if you ask me!) alive as a link in the chain
of time... I do what my father before me did, as learned from the
master who trained him, as did the master who trained him ...
This mind set is Very important in European glass circles - more
valued than self expression in ones work. Yet I'm young enough
(not a day over 40+ something LOL!) to know and be part of the
deep resounding satisfaction of pure expression in glass,
the song of hand to flame, the goal being beauty as the measure of
your success. Neither is right neither is wrong - just different.
And I'll say again that I think the true Zen place as a
"worker of glass' (be it artist, artisan, glassworker, glassblower)
or glass collector is seeking and demanding both of oneself -
dedication to both the technique and art of creating in glass
- now there is a goal worth pursuing for a lifetime.

In case any of my meaning goes adrift, I'm NOT saying anyone creating
and selling lampwork beads requires an apprenticship or that art is
good production is bad or production is bad for the soul on art is
worthwhile
(etc etc et al).

I'm just (per normal!) wandering and weaving thoughts...
The garden of glass has so many blooms - so many traditions,
so much history, technique, passion, risk, joy, restraint,
responsibility and points of view.....

I don't know for certain how the current apprenticed generation
of Czech lampworkers address annealing, COE issues, or other very
important technologic imperatives of glass - but I do know European
glassworkers are very dedicated to the art, make a good living at it
(given as MJ said the economy wage/rate of the country which is also
very different from ours) and are proud to carry on the traditon, as I
do from my father even tho dynamic persoanl expression is not the
focus.
It'll be interesting to see if in the years ahead that becomes more of
a fascination and value in their circles as it is in the US much as
I'm seeing more stress on technique growing to be valued here as the
movement grows.

Ok, before I put you to sleep I'll stop
Remeber, just a FWIW/Insight from another vantage point kind of post!
No right or wrong - just different life experiences - ain't it great?!

faith



"Mj" wrote in message

...
The glass bead industry in the Czech Republic is well established and

has
been there for over 100 years (if not longer). While the firepolished

and
pressed glass is made in factories, there are many factories and none of
them would be considered huge by American standards. The lampwork beads

are
a completely different story - or at least they used to be. Lampworking

is
a cottage industry in the Czech Republic utilizing many individual

families
making beads at home. The techniques are passed from generation to
generation starting at a very young age. These people are VERY skilled
artisans and by their own country's standards, very well paid. They

make
beads only in the styles that have been mainstays of the industry for
decades, so they may look 'mass-produced.' For them, the beads are a
product to make well but they are NOT necessarily an expression of an
artist's sensibility.

The beads are contracted for through either the factory owners or other
middlemen - the families rarely, if ever, produce beads for direct
marketing. As for quality, I can only assume that their glass industry
knows how to make beads that last considering how long it's existed in

that
area. If they didn't make a quality product, it wouldn't have

flourished as
it has.

Mj



"Kandice Seeber" wrote in message
. net...
the beads are probably made in a high production factory by
people who are making very little money. If the lady you buy from is

honest
about where the beads come from, then I see no problem with it - other

than
the fact that the beads are most likely not annealed and may not last

very
long. They are definitely not artisan made, but produced quickly and
cheaply. But there's no problem with that in my mind. It's when the

vender
lies about how and where they are getting the beads, and pretends like

they
are artisan made that I have a problem.



  #27  
Old July 25th 03, 02:56 AM
Deirdre S.
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

I think of Czech lampwork as living in a middle ground between what
you call 'artisan' work, expressing an individual sensibility ... and
the kind of sweatshop labor represented by Indian lampwork. To do the
Indian workers justice, though, they don't have the technology to do
artisan style work. If they did, their work might be of a much higher
standard.

I have got to hand it to them that they can make anything at all under
the working conditions that are all that's available to them.

Give some of those Indian craftspeople a good torch and a computer
controlled kiln, and it would be very interesting to see what they
produced.

Deirdre

On Thu, 24 Jul 2003 22:04:07 GMT, "Kandice Seeber"
wrote:

No, I didn't mean that these people were not capable of doing highly skilled
beads - not at all. What I meant was that it is hard to see from the beads
shown that the people making them are highly skilled artisans. Because
those beads are, like you said, made quickly and uniformly so as to be cost
effective for the families making them. The beads look tons better than the
crap sold in FMG - especially on the website VJ showed me. But that's
pretty much all a normal consumer has to go by - the look and durability of
the bead.

To be quite honest, I have used these beads before, but didn't know what
they were, a long time ago. They were pretty, so I bought them.

I guess, to me, when someone tells me that a bead is artisan made, I think
of an artisan as someone, an individual, who makes the lampwork to express
their artistic sensibilities, as you put it, and not for the mass market.

I also want to point out that sometimes on this group and in other places,
people assume that lampwork artists only exist here in the states (or it
appears that's what they assume, because of their comments). There are also
lampwork artists in other countries - Australia, Great Britain, Germany and
Japan, for example.

It's too bad that these artisans in the Czech Republic can't make more money
at what they do, like the artists in the States and in the above countries.
When I saw the low low prices on these Czech Lampwork beads just now, it
made me sad. Those bicones had to take longer than a few seconds to make,
and they're only just over $1 each. I really hope that in Czech standards,
that's a lot.

**sigh** I do apologize for making comments before I was properly informed.
Clearly Czech Lampwork was not something I knew a whole lot about. I know
now.


  #28  
Old July 25th 03, 03:01 AM
Deirdre S.
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

I'm still awake. And found this a clear explanation of the difference
between European tradition in artisanship, and the American approach.
Having lived in Europe for a while myself, I think what you say is
accurate about the differences. And I agree that a cross-fertilization
between the two could produce very worthy, interesting results.

Deirdre

On 24 Jul 2003 16:14:09 -0700, (Quest
Glass Studio) wrote:

Ok, before I put you to sleep I'll stop
Remeber, just a FWIW/Insight from another vantage point kind of post!
No right or wrong - just different life experiences - ain't it great?!


  #29  
Old July 25th 03, 06:00 AM
Christina Peterson
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

I was there a few years later, when my son was teaching English is Prague.
It's funny how we think other people eat funny, but we eat similar things.
I remember deep fried bread that people ate, sausage was mixed into the
batter. Well I guess that's no worse than deep fried bread or cake with
sugar smeared all over it (donuts).

Within those few years since you were there, local markets geared toward
tourist were already becoming established. Few people spoke English, but
many wanted to. And it was the women who did the best with the changes.
Men had a well identified place in the old scheme of things, but women had
been almost an after thought. Because they had so much less to lose by
embracing the new world, they did very well with the changes. Were
wonderfully dynamic.

I haven't been there since, but from the descriptions of Roger and Nelya,
things continue to improve for them. Very successful.

The point about TV is interesting. As it happens, I saw some American TV in
Ukraine. It was only then that I realised smething about the way all the
young girls dressed. They always looked like they were dressed for a night
club, including when they were on the job. Seeing TV, I realised that the
women on TV are shown wearing inappropriately sparkly and sexy clothing on
the job, or even going hiking.

I always wore "broom stick" skirts and fitted tops, and I was generally
mistaken for being Polish, or Western European. Foreign, but not too
foriegn.

Tina


"Kathy N-V" wrote in message
.com...
On Thu, 24 Jul 2003 18:04:07 -0400, Kandice Seeber wrote
(in message rJYTa.138985$H17.48271@sccrnsc02):

It's too bad that these artisans in the Czech Republic can't make more

money
at what they do, like the artists in the States and in the above

countries.
When I saw the low low prices on these Czech Lampwork beads just now,

it
made me sad. Those bicones had to take longer than a few seconds to

make,
and they're only just over $1 each. I really hope that in Czech

standards,
that's a lot.


It is. Or at least it was, the last time I went to the Czech Republic.

We
got about a zillion Koruna to the dollar, and Czech made goods were

cheaper
than dirt. I just checked (no pun), and the exchange rate is still almost

30
Koruna to the dollar.

Visiting Czech story: My family lives very near the Czech border, so when
the borders opened, they scoped out the place immediately. I visited

several
months later, and my cousin wanted to take me to this "great restaurant."
(This was early 1990 or so)

We drove for miles through the countryside, crossing the border at this
strange little crossing where the Czech guards had to look up my passport

in
a three ring binder, because they were unfamiliar with US passports. We
drove to a very small town, and this restaurant was clearly the happening
spot. Trabants and Ladas overflowed from the parking lot, and my cousin's
Mercedes was clearly out of place.

My cousin and his wife were old regulars at the place, and everyone

greeted
them as we went in. I walked in and the place fell silent. I was dressed

in
my usual winter travel garb (jeans, sweater and a Land's End Squall

jacket),
while everyone there was clearly wearing their best clothing. But their

best
clothing made the clientele look as if they were trying out for extras in

the
movie "Saturday Night Fever." Never have I seen so much spandex and

sparkles
on people who clearly think sausage is a food group. :-0

Anyway, we were seated and handed menus. This place had about 800 kinds

of
liquor, but only one food item on the menu: fried cheese. So fried

cheese
it was.

After about twenty minutes of waiting, the food arrived. The fried cheese
was terrific, although the waiting was not. All the locals came within
inches of me to stare, as if I were an animal in the zoo. People would

point
to some article of my clothing, say something in the vernacular, and the
whole crowd would laugh. My cousin and his wife were as puzzled as I was.

A few moments after getting our fried cheese, the waiter came over to see

if
we wanted tartar sauce. Tartar sauce on cheese? Haven't they ever heard

of
fish? Or saturated fat? At any rate, I skipped the tartar sauce and had

my
cheese au natural.

As we ate, people kept coming over to point at my clothing and laugh. My
shoes (normal New Balance sneaks) were also a source of great amusement.
Women in lurid blue sparkle eye shadow and sequined tube tops were poking

me
and seemingly having the time of their life. Not surprisingly, once we

were
done with our fried cheese, I wanted outta there.

We got our dinner check, and I wanted to pay. Restaurant meals are quite
expensive in Germany, so I figured a hundred D-marks or so would cover it.

I
was right - a hundred D-marks would have paid for that meal, and the tab

of
everyone else in the place. After I mentally did the conversion, I
discovered that our meal was the equivalent of about $3! I left a 10 mark
bill (worth maybe $5 at the time), and off we went.

On the way out, the ridiculousness of the situation hit me. I knew that
within no time, these people would be introduced to Western television and

I
would no longer be a novelty to them. (And I'd bet they'd lose the lycra,
too) In the meantime, I had had an experience I would never forget. The
fried cheese wasn't bad, either.

Kathy N-V



  #30  
Old July 25th 03, 06:18 AM
WildPoppy1
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

elise
we got our first ridgeback Karat, from chris and stuart, pc was her daddy...
sassafrass her mom. she would write letters home to mom and dad. she lived to
9 1 /2, we lost her a year ago last Christmas. in the mean time we have a
second rr, armani-bwana from kennels in alabama... but may be getting what my
retired cop husband referrs to as an "Under Cover" rr, or rrr.

we have been with fmg for 18 years, they have always played fair with us, and
they feature photos of missing children, my other passion in life, finding
space in sale books.

i plan on continuing our business relationship...even having a "pet member of
the family" i get no discounts or any compensations from fmg.
pat moses-caudel
http://members.aol.com/patmcaudel/2index.html
 




Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Hilltribe silver WAS Cane Glass from Fire Mountain? Beadseeker Beads 3 July 12th 03 07:50 AM


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 11:37 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright 2004-2024 CraftBanter.
The comments are property of their posters.