Re: OT Re: Going to be gone UPDATE

[Deirdre S.]

Take care of yourself, and I'm visualizing your new kidlet hanging in
there until a point where it's safe to come out...

Deirdre

On Tue, 8 Jul 2003 13:45:12 -0500, "Karlee in Kansas"
> wrote:

>I'm getting tired again so I'll go lay back down.

[Tink]

How sad it is when someone is that bitter. I hope your MILFH finds peace in
her life, sooner rather than later. Important to remember that it's her
problem though, and not yours. Take care of yourself physically and
emotionally the best you can. This may sound weird, but sometimes the most
healing thing we can do for ourselves is to forgive those who have hurt us.
It returns power and responsibility for our lives and our feelings back to
our own hands... Good luck, sweetie...

--
Tinkster
www.imeltstuff.com
Join my Mailing List:

[SmartAlecBlonde4]

>he MILFH told the aunt that "She deserves it"
>and a few other not so nice things

Sheesh, that is her grandchild your carrying and I just can't understand
someone that is so heartless and vindictive about their grandchild. Sounds
like you and your dh are better off without them but yet, I feel bad for your
dh to. Its too bad his mother is such a nasty person.

Jo Jo

[Karlee in Kansas]

This lady is a real piece of work. Class A bitch in my book. In the email that she sent to DH, she told him that she
will apologize for nothing, because she has done nothing wrong, I have hurt her beyond words, broken her heart, and
wants me to apologize. Right after she said this, she said that she "will" apologize but "not til you come home so that
you can see that I'm doing it" (I hope that this makes sense to someone besides her because it makes NO sense to me)
Then turns around and says that she wants to salvage the relationship between the two of us, and she talks of me driving
a wedge between her and DH, but what she doesn't realize is that she is the one driving that wedge. Not me. She
already has one kid that won't have anything to do with her, and is working on alienating a second.

She also said in part...
"Congratulations on Ellie. I can't wait to meet her if I'm going to be
allowed that privilege. I have several projects under way for her and will
send them as they are finished. I just hope Karlee likes them."

1. She abused her kids, abused me, and abused my son. Don't think for one damn minute that I'm going to give her the
chance to abuse another one of my loved ones.
2. I will probably like them, but I'm sure that the women's shelter will like them more.

Then at the end of her email she says
"Well, that's about all I can think of for now, so I'm going to end
here and go to bed. It is 1AM and i,m tired. I love you and Karlee and
Vincent."

Vincent hates her. Says he doesn't ever want to see her again after the way that she treated mikes dog, made me cry,
and made him cry. This, coming from a 6 yo.

If she really loved me, she wouldn't have told Nanny "she deserves it" nor would she have called me a bitch, a liar, or
a whore.

If what she is doing is love, then what do you call how my husband feels for me? He was in tears when I was in the
hospital, wouldn't leave my side, and believe it or not, even emptied the bed pan that I had been reduced to "going" in
because the doc wouldn't let me out of bed. This man let me squeeze his hand with every contraction, not wincing once,
rubbing my back, and after the foley was removed, helped me shower. This man offered to get fixed after Ellie is born
because in his words, "I don't want to put you through this again". This man cares for me, hugs me every time he gets
the chance, and is always there for me when I need him. If his mother "loves" me by doing and saying all these things,
then what is the name for the feeling that he has??? I find it hard to believe that she loves me like a daughter like
she claims she does. She needs some serious mental help but won't get it because she thinks that there is nothing wrong
with her. She is THE most two faced person that I have *ever* met in my life. She tells DH that she loves me, yet
tells her sister that she is going to do everything in her power to get him to divorce me.

My mother and gramma say that I should suck it up and apologize for DH's sake. Gramma says that if I let this go on any
longer, that my marriage is going to wind up in divorce because "blood is thicker than water". It very well may be
thicker than water, but my DH has a brain and can see for himself what his mother is doing. It is his choice to cut
contact. I have told him my side of the story, he has heard her story (through emails), and he knows his mother better
than anyone. He is making this choice on his own. On a side note, my mother got really angry with me when we were in
PA and called her. She asked if we had visited MILFH and when I told her no, we didn't see her, and won't see her, she
got mad and told me that we still needed to visit, and bury the hatchet. <snort> Everyone has their own opinion on
this, DH and I included, and while we will listen to your opinion, you won't get us to change ours.

Upset
Karlee in Kansas

--
Visit my web page! www.angelfire.com/ks3/karlee/index.html
Our family page: http://groups.msn.com/brennanfamilypage


--
"SmartAlecBlonde4" > wrote in message ...
| >he MILFH told the aunt that "She deserves it"
| >and a few other not so nice things
|
| Sheesh, that is her grandchild your carrying and I just can't understand
| someone that is so heartless and vindictive about their grandchild. Sounds
| like you and your dh are better off without them but yet, I feel bad for your
| dh to. Its too bad his mother is such a nasty person.
|
| Jo Jo

[Kandice Seeber]

Welcome back, Karlee. I'm so sorry to hear about hubby's uncle and all the
family problems. I am glad to hear that your baby is doing fine - take it
easy and keep that baby in for a little while longer! ((((hugs))))

--
Kandice Seeber
Air & Earth Designs
http://www.lampwork.net
"Karlee in Kansas" > wrote in message
...
>
> I'm back home now....we got in at 5:45 am yesterday morning. I've been so
tired, I didn't have the energy to sit and
> read and post like I would like to. For those that are interested...this
is roughly a readers digest version.
>
> DH's uncle was dying of cancer. He was dx'ed in January, and his wife and
daughter were told that it was a fast moving
> cancer, and gave him less than a year to live. We got to Pennsylvania on
Saturday afternoon, and his uncle died on
> Sunday. The funeral was on Wednesday. In an amongst all this, we were
able to fit in some sight seeing and time with
> his other aunts family. For reasons that remain lengthy and will remain
unmentioned at this point, we did not visit his
> parents. When DH's cousin "spilled the beans" that we were in town, his
mother flew off the handle, got nasty all over
> again, and refused to go to her sisters husbands funeral. After a long,
unreasonably demanding email from his mother,
> DH decided that it will definitely be a cold day in hell before he speaks
to her again.
>
> On July 4th, we were supposed to go to a BBQ/get together at a different
aunts house. We weren't there for an hour when
> my contractions started. After roughly an hour of regular contractions,
we went to the hospital. I have been diagnosed
> with pre-term labor (again....2nd baby, 2nd case of pre-term). The usual
medication didn't work, and after 14 hours of
> contractions, they switched meds. The second set of meds did the trick in
getting Ellie to stay put for the time being.
> I didn't get released until way after we should have left for Kansas for
DH to sign back in from leave. Good thing his
> 1st sgt's wife went through the same thing, and was very understanding. I
have spent the last day resting because the
> medication that they have me on has this neat little effect of lowering
your blood pressure, yesterday in *another*
> visit to the hospital, my bp was 78/34. I've been weak and dizzy, and
only up and about for short periods of time due
> to that. Doc has me on 3 doses a day now instead of 4, and in a few days,
I need to reduce back to two doses a day
> until the meds are gone. Hopefully it will be enough to get me to last
another 10 weeks (that's all I have left in the
> pg...but going off of my last pregnancy, I'll only hold out for about 8-9
more). DH and his aunt think that the stress
> from his mother was the cause of the intense contracting...stress from her
has caused me to do this before in this
> pregnancy, but not to this degree. I think that its just my body being
its usual self because of my previous history of
> pre-term labor. Either way, when DH's aunt told the MILFH about my trip
to the hospital (I found out about this
> conversation last night when I called his aunt to tell her we got home),
the MILFH told the aunt that "She deserves it"
> and a few other not so nice things that I really don't feel like typing
right now. This woman is really ****ing me off
> with all her self-serving selfish behavior.
>
> Anywho...
>
> There were so many posts, it would take me a very very long time to catch
up because of the current energy status, so I
> marked them all "read"...if I missed anything important, please let me
know.
>
> I'm getting tired again so I'll go lay back down.
>
> Hugs
> Karlee in Kansas
>
> --
> Visit my web page! www.angelfire.com/ks3/karlee/index.html
> Our family page: http://groups.msn.com/brennanfamilypage
>
>
> --
> "Karlee in Kansas" > wrote in message
...
> | Due to a severe illness and impending death in DH's family, we will be
gone for the next 10 days.
> |
> | I'll try to check in through google when I can, but I won't promise
anything.
> |
> |
> | Hugs
> | Karlee in Kansas
> |
> | --
> | Visit my web page! www.angelfire.com/ks3/karlee/index.html
> | Our family page: http://groups.msn.com/brennanfamilypage
> |
> |
> | --
> |
> |
>
>

[Kandice Seeber]

(((((((Karlee))))))) That all just makes me so sad. She really needs some
professional help. What she's doing to your family is just awful.

--
Kandice Seeber
Air & Earth Designs
http://www.lampwork.net
"Karlee in Kansas" > wrote in message
...
> This lady is a real piece of work. Class A bitch in my book. In the
email that she sent to DH, she told him that she
> will apologize for nothing, because she has done nothing wrong, I have
hurt her beyond words, broken her heart, and
> wants me to apologize. Right after she said this, she said that she
"will" apologize but "not til you come home so that
> you can see that I'm doing it" (I hope that this makes sense to someone
besides her because it makes NO sense to me)
> Then turns around and says that she wants to salvage the relationship
between the two of us, and she talks of me driving
> a wedge between her and DH, but what she doesn't realize is that she is
the one driving that wedge. Not me. She
> already has one kid that won't have anything to do with her, and is
working on alienating a second.
>
> She also said in part...
> "Congratulations on Ellie. I can't wait to meet her if I'm going to be
> allowed that privilege. I have several projects under way for her and
will
> send them as they are finished. I just hope Karlee likes them."
>
> 1. She abused her kids, abused me, and abused my son. Don't think for
one damn minute that I'm going to give her the
> chance to abuse another one of my loved ones.
> 2. I will probably like them, but I'm sure that the women's shelter will
like them more.
>
> Then at the end of her email she says
> "Well, that's about all I can think of for now, so I'm going to end
> here and go to bed. It is 1AM and i,m tired. I love you and Karlee and
> Vincent."
>
> Vincent hates her. Says he doesn't ever want to see her again after the
way that she treated mikes dog, made me cry,
> and made him cry. This, coming from a 6 yo.
>
> If she really loved me, she wouldn't have told Nanny "she deserves it" nor
would she have called me a bitch, a liar, or
> a whore.
>
> If what she is doing is love, then what do you call how my husband feels
for me? He was in tears when I was in the
> hospital, wouldn't leave my side, and believe it or not, even emptied the
bed pan that I had been reduced to "going" in
> because the doc wouldn't let me out of bed. This man let me squeeze his
hand with every contraction, not wincing once,
> rubbing my back, and after the foley was removed, helped me shower. This
man offered to get fixed after Ellie is born
> because in his words, "I don't want to put you through this again". This
man cares for me, hugs me every time he gets
> the chance, and is always there for me when I need him. If his mother
"loves" me by doing and saying all these things,
> then what is the name for the feeling that he has??? I find it hard to
believe that she loves me like a daughter like
> she claims she does. She needs some serious mental help but won't get it
because she thinks that there is nothing wrong
> with her. She is THE most two faced person that I have *ever* met in my
life. She tells DH that she loves me, yet
> tells her sister that she is going to do everything in her power to get
him to divorce me.
>
> My mother and gramma say that I should suck it up and apologize for DH's
sake. Gramma says that if I let this go on any
> longer, that my marriage is going to wind up in divorce because "blood is
thicker than water". It very well may be
> thicker than water, but my DH has a brain and can see for himself what his
mother is doing. It is his choice to cut
> contact. I have told him my side of the story, he has heard her story
(through emails), and he knows his mother better
> than anyone. He is making this choice on his own. On a side note, my
mother got really angry with me when we were in
> PA and called her. She asked if we had visited MILFH and when I told her
no, we didn't see her, and won't see her, she
> got mad and told me that we still needed to visit, and bury the hatchet.
<snort> Everyone has their own opinion on
> this, DH and I included, and while we will listen to your opinion, you
won't get us to change ours.
>
> Upset
> Karlee in Kansas
>
> --
> Visit my web page! www.angelfire.com/ks3/karlee/index.html
> Our family page: http://groups.msn.com/brennanfamilypage
>
>
> --
> "SmartAlecBlonde4" > wrote in message
...
> | >he MILFH told the aunt that "She deserves it"
> | >and a few other not so nice things
> |
> | Sheesh, that is her grandchild your carrying and I just can't understand
> | someone that is so heartless and vindictive about their grandchild.
Sounds
> | like you and your dh are better off without them but yet, I feel bad for
your
> | dh to. Its too bad his mother is such a nasty person.
> |
> | Jo Jo
>
>

[BeckiBead]

KISSES and hugs to you, Sweet Karlee and to Ellie, through you. You don't have
to read all the posts. Just do what you want, and thanks for staying connected
to us. I'm sorry you have been through so much lately.




Becki
"In between the moon and you, the angels have a better view of the crumbling
difference between wrong and right.." -- Counting Crows

[BeckiBead]

Karlee -- your husband sounds like the sweetest thing alive. I am sorry he
came with such a horrid mother. I could tell you some family stories from my
mother's funeral that would make your hair stand on end. Sometimes we just
come THROUGH our families to this earth. I am glad you found the family (your
own) that really loves you.


Becki
"In between the moon and you, the angels have a better view of the crumbling
difference between wrong and right.." -- Counting Crows

[Deirdre S.]

On Tue, 08 Jul 2003 20:54:54 GMT, "Tink"
> wrote:

>It returns power and responsibility for our lives and our feelings back to
>our own hands...

And removes power from those who have used it to hurt us... it gives
us a surge of returning energy, which is no longer tied up in
resentment and anger, and we get to use it however we want, because it
is ours again.

Deirdre

[Kalera Stratton]

In article >,
"Karlee in Kansas" > wrote:

>
> I'm getting tired again so I'll go lay back down.
>
> Hugs
> Karlee in Kansas

Argh I'm sorry you had to go through so much crap! I hope the meds do
the trick and you can soon be off them, I hope Ellie stays put until
she's nice and ready, and I hope your MIL gets therapy.

Take care of yourself,

--
-Kalera
Mom of Juliet, 5, Sam, 3, and Ophelia, born 5/31/03
Wife of the incomparable Moxley of www.spaceplex.com
See us at www.strattonhome.org

[Kalera Stratton]

In article >,
"Karlee in Kansas" > wrote:

> This lady is a real piece of work. Class A bitch in my book. In the email
> that she sent to DH, she told him that she
> will apologize for nothing, because she has done nothing wrong, I have hurt
> her beyond words, broken her heart, and
> wants me to apologize. Right after she said this, she said that she "will"
> apologize but "not til you come home so that
> you can see that I'm doing it" (I hope that this makes sense to someone
> besides her because it makes NO sense to me)
> Then turns around and says that she wants to salvage the relationship between
> the two of us, and she talks of me driving
> a wedge between her and DH, but what she doesn't realize is that she is the
> one driving that wedge. Not me. She
> already has one kid that won't have anything to do with her, and is working
> on alienating a second.


That lady needs to take a long trip to a hot place.

--
-Kalera
Mom of Juliet, 5, Sam, 3, and Ophelia, born 5/31/03
Wife of the incomparable Moxley of www.spaceplex.com
See us at www.strattonhome.org

[Dr. Sooz]

>>he MILFH told the aunt that "She deserves it"
>>and a few other not so nice things

You know, Karlee -- she is just plain sick. You don't need her!
~~
Sooz
-------
ESBC
Dr. Sooz's Bead Links
http://airandearth.netfirms.com/soozlinkslist.html
One of the advantages of being disorderly is that one is constantly making
exciting discoveries. ~ A. A. Milne

[Dr. Sooz]

>(((((((Karlee))))))) That all just makes me so sad. She really needs some
>professional help.

What Kandice said.
~~
Sooz
-------
ESBC
Dr. Sooz's Bead Links
http://airandearth.netfirms.com/soozlinkslist.html
One of the advantages of being disorderly is that one is constantly making
exciting discoveries. ~ A. A. Milne

[Dr. Sooz]

>Karlee -- your husband sounds like the sweetest thing alive. I am sorry he
>came with such a horrid mother.

What Becki said.
~~
Sooz
-------
ESBC
Dr. Sooz's Bead Links
http://airandearth.netfirms.com/soozlinkslist.html
One of the advantages of being disorderly is that one is constantly making
exciting discoveries. ~ A. A. Milne

[Karlee in Kansas]

Long story...bear with me...

I had found a german shepard for free in the local paper. Mike loves german shepards. He worked with them and trained
them during his 10 year stay in germany. I want more than anything in this world to make my husband happy....and I knew
that getting him that dog would do just that.

Gretchen was about a year old, and no one had ever worked with her. She had no manners to speak of, and would look at
you like you had a second head if you requested the most menial of tasks such as "sit". Very badly behaved dog, that
suffered from separation anxiety, and was really really hyper, and destructive if left alone. Not to mention she was
LARGE. Close to 90 pounds of dog.

MILFH would beat the dog when she would take her out to do her biz. MILFH beat the dog because the dog would bolt out
the door, dragging her behind. MILFH would beat the dog for peeing in the house (poor thing didn't know any better),
and MILFH would not let the dog roam the house. She would make the dog lay at her feet all day, not taking her out on a
regular basis, yell at *me* when I wanted to take her for a walk. She made the dog lay at her feet by standing on the
leash....keeping about 8 inches (plus or minus) between the dogs head and the floor. If dog moved or attempted to go
eat or drink, she got beat. Any attempt on my part to rescue the dog would result in me being yelled at, called
incompetent, being told I don't have the first clue about dogs (like she is some kind of freaking authority)...basically
I got verbally abused when all I was trying to do was rescue the dog.

This was not the only dog in the house mind you. We also have a pomeranian puppy named Kasey. Kasey is a black, tiny,
fuzzy, dot compared to the german shepard. Kasey being little and a puppy (only about 4 months old at that point in
time) meant that MILFH thought that Kasey could do as she pleased. MILFH would cuddle puppy all day, and thought it was
"cute" when Kasey piddled in the house. Kasey could do no wrong, and Gretchen could do no right. MILFH turned Kasey
into the proverbial "barker" and "ankle biter"...3 months later, we are still working with her on it.

After MILFH left, I found out that that is her general way of playing favorites. She did it with Mike and his brother.
She does it with her sisters grandchildren. With her kids, she beat the living hell out of Mike, turned him into her
verbal punching bag as well as personal slave. His brother was left to do as he wanted. Her sister has 6
grandchildren. Two of them are very well cared for and very loving. The other four have incompetent parents, and have
no idea what it means to love someone. She will go to the first two's b-day parties and buy them xmas gifts, but when
it comes to the others, she always has some convenient excuse to not attend their parties and not buy them gifts. This,
mainly because she doesn't like the mother of the 4, and adores the mother of the two. (Make sense or have I confused
you yet?)

Needless to say, Gretchen became too much for me to handle after MILFH left. She would go on a rampage if she was left
alone for more than 30 seconds. She peed on the bed, shredded the shades and the shower curtain, knocked over a fish
tank (I managed to save some of the fishies), and started to refuse to poop anywhere but in my room. It broke my heart,
but I found her a new family. Mike completely understood, despite the warning from MILFH that by giving up a dog I
couldn't control would mean the end of my marriage. I have a feeling that Gretchen was ****ed at me for not being able
to rescue her from the Evil One.

MILFH maintains that she did not mistreat the dog. I guess in her sick mind, beating the dog was no more mistreatment
than beating her 3yo son bloody with a slat she ripped off of the playpen after he peed his pants.

Because I see how she plays favorites, and knows how she treats living, feeling, beings, she will not have any contact
with my children. I know that once Ellie gets here, Vincent (my son from my previous marriage) will fade into the
background and won't get hugs and kisses nor will he get gifts or cards because he is not really her grandchild. I
won't put him through that. (I know that some things I can not shield my kids from, but rejection from a grandparent is
something that I can protect him from)

This whole hullabaloo boils down to a few simple points.

1. Favorites. She abuses those that aren't her favorite. She is unable to love, much less show affection to more than
one person at one time.
2. Jealousy. She is jealous of the fact that her son has found his soulmate (his words) and loves her with everything
that he has...and does not hesitate to show his wife that love every chance he gets. Her marriage has never had love.
3. Self-centeredness (I think that is a word...). If the world does not revolve around her, she will create an event to
*make* it revolve around her. Uncle was dying....so she made a Federal Case out of the fact that her Dr. wanted to run
an MRI. I made her leave before she was ready, so she made a Federal Case out of nothing (saying that I had mistreated
her amongst other things). Her First Born Child wants nothing to do with her, so she is making a *bigger* Federal Case
out of nothing...stating the "hell she put me through since I left Kansas" and "she is driving a wedge between us, and
we have been apart far too long as it is" (as if he doesn't have a brain and can't decide for himself if he wants
contact with her or not). (The only hell that I put her through was in telling her that I needed time and space and
"please, let me come to you ok?" When I get angry and hurt, I go into hermit mode. I avoid people at all cost unless
contact is absolutely necessary. I just wanted her to leave me alone for a while so I could sort things out. This
would *not* have achieved the level that it has if she would have left me alone and not badgered me endlessly about "why
did you make me leave". I'm more angry and hurt over the things that she has said and done since she has been gone than
all the **** she pulled when she was here.) She has to either be "first or worst" in everything. She had to be the
first in the family to get married and have kids...resulting in a marriage that has no love, and two children that she
resented all their lives until they started to resent her. If you have a sore toe, her leg is going to fall off. Her
sister has a rare disease called Primary Lateral Sclerosis. Not long after her sisters diagnosis, she claimed massive
back problems and said that the bones in her spine were liquefying. Her sister had to go on valium just to be able to
talk, then Prozac on top of it so that she wouldn't be mean. MILFH decided that she was "massively depressed" and also
needed Prozac. MILFH sees 3 different doctors for different forms of pain killers, and those doctors don't know that
she is seeing the others, much less the fact that she is on the other medications (morphine pills, percocet pills, and
darvocet), that she eats like candy, claiming that she needs them to survive the day. But mind you, she could beat the
**** out of a 90 pound dog and throw around a 50 pound bag of dog food like it was nothing. If she thinks that someone
is watching she uses her cane...if she thinks that no one is watching, there is no cane and no limp. Don't even get me
started on the 45 minute drive around the parking lot of wal-mart.

Just a side note...her story of the events is that she "never mistreated the dog, Vincent, or Karlee. I did everything
I could to help her out while I was there, and don't understand why she made me leave. I never called her a bitch or a
liar, and most certainly did NOT hint that she is a whore. I don't understand why she is so angry with me and don't
understand why she won't talk to me now." 1. You just read the story about the dog. The story of my sons mistreatment
and my mistreatment is equally as bad, if not worse. 2. She did jack **** to help. She sat on her fat ass watching tv,
yelling at us and the dog, or parked her butt in the kitchen painting her little ceramic thingies. Wouldn't so much as
empty her ash tray (trash can right beside the chair) or take her dishes to the kitchen. Didn't offer to help when I
was unpacking, cleaning, or napping. 3. She called me a bitch and a liar in a conversation with Mike...he heard it
with his own ears, and now she is trying to deny it. She insinuated that I'm a whore in a conversation that she had
with my neighbor...and I overheard the conversation. Lets not forget the fact that she firmly believes that I'm
cheating on Mike with an online friend of mine that was stationed in Georgia at the time. Mike has met said friend in
person, and knows that I could not achieve what she said I did while he was gone. (I don't fly and it would have taken
me 3 days to drive to Georgia on my own. He is now stationed in NY, married, and deployed to Afghanistan for another 11
months. I haven't talked to him online in nearly a month because of the deployment)

I'm sorry that the story was so long...but in explaining the dog story, I felt the need to delve into her psyche a
little more, so maybe you can see it from my point of view. I'm really really angry over this, and have a tendency to
start yelling when you are talking to me in person about it (I get really loud when I get angry). I guess that I'm just
a horrible person for not apologizing. Go ahead. Flame me. I'm beyond caring now. In fact, I'm mad enough to spit
silver nails.

Karlee in Kansas, who realizes that some people are alive simply because its illegal to kill them

--
Visit my web page! www.angelfire.com/ks3/karlee/index.html
Our family page: http://groups.msn.com/brennanfamilypage


--
"Dr. Sooz" > wrote in message ...
| What did MILFH do to Mike's dog..?
| ~~
| Sooz
| -------
| ESBC
| Dr. Sooz's Bead Links
| http://airandearth.netfirms.com/soozlinkslist.html
| One of the advantages of being disorderly is that one is constantly making
| exciting discoveries. ~ A. A. Milne
|

[Dr. Sooz]

You know, if you just print up the dog story alone and send it to you mom and
grandma, I bet they'd back off from telling you to make amends with the MILFH.
Jesus Christ. (I would have murdered her if I'd seen her do that to a
dog.....I'd be in prison right *now*!)

>Gretchen was about a year old, and no one had ever worked with her. She had
>no manners to speak of, and would look at
>you like you had a second head if you requested the most menial of tasks such
>as "sit". Very badly behaved dog, that
>suffered from separation anxiety, and was really really hyper, and
>destructive if left alone. Not to mention she was
>LARGE. Close to 90 pounds of dog.
>
>MILFH would beat the dog when she would take her out to do her biz. MILFH
>beat the dog because the dog would bolt out
>the door, dragging her behind. MILFH would beat the dog for peeing in the
house (poor thing didn't know any better),
>and MILFH would not let the dog roam the house. She would make the dog lay
>at her feet all day, not taking her out on a
>regular basis, yell at *me* when I wanted to take her for a walk. She made
>the dog lay at her feet by standing on the
>leash....keeping about 8 inches (plus or minus) between the dogs head and the
floor. If dog moved or attempted to go
>eat or drink, she got beat. Any attempt on my part to rescue the dog would
>result in me being yelled at, called
>incompetent, being told I don't have the first clue about dogs (like she is
>some kind of freaking authority)...basically
>I got verbally abused when all I was trying to do was rescue the dog.

~~
Sooz
-------
ESBC
Dr. Sooz's Bead Links
http://airandearth.netfirms.com/soozlinkslist.html
One of the advantages of being disorderly is that one is constantly making
exciting discoveries. ~ A. A. Milne

[Sjpolyclay]

> I guess that I'm just
>a horrible person for not apologizing. Go ahead. Flame me. I'm beyond
>caring now. In fact, I'm mad enough to spit
>silver nails.

Dear Karlee,
Here's the part I can't agree with--you are NOT horrible for not apologising.
Nor are you beyond caring, or you'd not be protective or angry. You care plenty
about what counts, and that's good.

Personally, I am so glad that you feel no need to apologise. It indicates a
healthy desire to protect yourself and your family members, especially the
little ones. Please don't feel ANY need to get on better with that old shrew,
she hurts people and animals. None of you need that in your lives. This is
Toxic Behavior on her part, and you don't need to drink her poison to be
"nice", OK?? Just say " NO", as you have been doing. Do as you feel best, and
it doesn't feel at ALL good to be around people like her. And please, please
continue to keep her away from your children. Abuse is horrible, and what you
describe is definately abuse.
Sarajane

Sarajane's Polymer Clay Gallery
http://www.polyclay.com

view my auctions at:
http://www.polyclay.com/Collage/auction.htm

[Dr. Sooz]

What Sarajane said!

>Personally, I am so glad that you feel no need to apologise. It indicates a
healthy desire to protect yourself and your family members, especially the
>little ones. Please don't feel ANY need to get on better with that old shrew,
she hurts people and animals.


~~
Sooz
-------
ESBC
Dr. Sooz's Bead Links
http://airandearth.netfirms.com/soozlinkslist.html
One of the advantages of being disorderly is that one is constantly making
exciting discoveries. ~ A. A. Milne

[Kalera Stratton]

In article >,
"Karlee in Kansas" > wrote:

> I'm sorry that the story was so long...but in explaining the dog story, I
> felt the need to delve into her psyche a
> little more, so maybe you can see it from my point of view. I'm really
> really angry over this, and have a tendency to
> start yelling when you are talking to me in person about it (I get really
> loud when I get angry). I guess that I'm just
> a horrible person for not apologizing. Go ahead. Flame me. I'm beyond
> caring now. In fact, I'm mad enough to spit
> silver nails.
>
> Karlee in Kansas, who realizes that some people are alive simply because its
> illegal to kill them

Wow, that woman is NOT RIGHT IN THE HEAD.

I can understand the impulse to hit a child. I've felt it! I've smacked
their little bottoms and then wished I hadn't; it's not productive, it
just makes them mad and resentful. I ABSOLUTELY CANNOT imagine the
impulse to beat a child senseless. Especially a 3-year-old baby. Your
MIL is a horrible, horrible person. That one sentence says it all. Beat
him with a CRIB SLAT? My god. Keep her far, far away. Some people are
just misunderstood, and some are BAD.

--
-Kalera
Mom of Juliet, 5, Sam, 3, and Ophelia, born 5/31/03
Wife of the incomparable Moxley of www.spaceplex.com
See us at www.strattonhome.org

[Sjpolyclay]

>Karlee in Kansas who can't resist hugging a *critter or talking to a plant

Given the people you've described that you come from, you are much more likely
to get honest love back from the critters and the plants. Stick with them, and
your DH and your kids.
As Dierdre and several others pointed out in a recent thread to me, you can't
win with those kinds of negative people. There is NO WAY to do things well or
ever come out anything but wrong. So please know that you don't have to spend
yur energy running races you can't win, and where the judges are throwing
rocks. Stay away from that kind of negativity when you can, it eats at you
when you don't, doesn't it? My family, the one from which I came, was/is very
negative in many ways too, and I speak from experience here--you can only find
and keep happiness when you are not in the presence of those who need to
destroy it in you for their own satisfaction/comfort. I'm not meaning to
insult your lineage--but you have some toxic stuff there, and its OK to
distance yourself from it, the same way you'd pull yourself and the kids and
the critters away from an out of control fire.
Sarajane

Sarajane's Polymer Clay Gallery
http://www.polyclay.com

view my auctions at:
http://www.polyclay.com/Collage/auction.htm

[Turtlelover]

Karlee in Kansas wrote:

> Long story...bear with me...
>

<snipped because it's so sad 8^( >


Karlee, that woman is pure poison. It's a wonder that she doesn't kill
living things just by touch alone...imagine the venom inside!

I don't remember (from reading past postings) whether MIL was abused as
a child or by her husband, but it makes you wonder; that behavior has to
come from somewhere. IMHO, if people had to be tested for emotional
stability before procreating, many of us wouldn't be allow to have
children!

(((((((((Karlee)))))))))

Best wishes,
Turtlelover

[Deirdre S.]

But she is probably the sort of person who always sees 'the problem'
as being -other- people, not herself, so she is very unlikely to seek
that kind of help, and wouldn't make use of it if it were offered to
her for free.

"If only the rest of the world did what I want, everything would be
OK" is probably her unquestioned POV, so it is everyone else who ought
to change, in order to make things better for her.

Deirdre

On 09 Jul 2003 19:49:16 GMT, (Dr. Sooz)
wrote:

>>(((((((Karlee))))))) That all just makes me so sad. She really needs some
>>professional help.
>
>What Kandice said.
>~~
>Sooz
>-------
>ESBC
>Dr. Sooz's Bead Links
>http://airandearth.netfirms.com/soozlinkslist.html
>One of the advantages of being disorderly is that one is constantly making
>exciting discoveries. ~ A. A. Milne

[Deirdre S.]

For me, makeup is a 'never' thing. And dresses, even for weddings and
funerals, not likely.

And if anyone called me a dyke, I would just nod and grin, because
that is exactly what I am. And delighted to have the power tools to
prove it. ;-)

A dykish streak, even in straight women, is a useful thing. It says "I
am capable, competent, and I dress for action, not fashion...
especially when the prescribed fashion is 'cute and helpless'."


Deirdre


On 10 Jul 2003 02:47:37 GMT, (Rachel T.)
wrote:

>>>See, I'm a royal screw up in their eyes cause I'm mouthy, don't take crap,
>and I'm not "feminine enough" (Bout the only time I get into a dress is for a
>wedding, funeral, or Christmas, and even
>rarer are the times that I wear make up...mom accuses me of not having any
>pride in myself...about two years ago gramma
>called me a "dyke").
>
>Well, we'd get along famously! The last time I was in a dress, was....jeez, I
>don't remember. I don't even wear them for funerals anymore. And make up...
>that's a rare thing anymore

[Karlee in Kansas]

Yes, she was abused as a child, and by Mikes dad. Although I don't buy into the theory that this is why she is the way
that she is. Mike was abused as a kidlet and adolescent, and he turned out just fine. I was beaten severely in my
early adult-hood years, and I don't beat my child or animals, nor think that the world owes me something. I got help.
I rose above what happened. Both Mike and I are breaking the cycle. It can be done, and should be done.

She is a very bitter woman, not to mention jealous, but that does not mean that I need to bow to her every whim because
she was dealt a bad hand. At 53 some odd years old, she is old enough to take responsibility for her actions, and get
help if that is what is needed. She just thinks that there is nothing wrong with her, its the rest of the world that is
fu*ked up.

I fully believe that some people should NOT be allowed to become parents. Of course, I also believe that there should
either be arial spraying of Prozac, or Prozac salt licks placed strategically around the nation (if not both).


Hugs
Karlee in Kansas
--
Visit my web page! www.angelfire.com/ks3/karlee/index.html
Our family page: http://groups.msn.com/brennanfamilypage


--
"Turtlelover" > wrote in message ...
|
|
| Karlee in Kansas wrote:
|
| > Long story...bear with me...
| >
|
| <snipped because it's so sad 8^( >
|
|
| Karlee, that woman is pure poison. It's a wonder that she doesn't kill
| living things just by touch alone...imagine the venom inside!
|
| I don't remember (from reading past postings) whether MIL was abused as
| a child or by her husband, but it makes you wonder; that behavior has to
| come from somewhere. IMHO, if people had to be tested for emotional
| stability before procreating, many of us wouldn't be allow to have
| children!
|
| (((((((((Karlee)))))))))
|
| Best wishes,
| Turtlelover

[Deirdre S.]

I know the -pattern- very well.

The more deeply unconscious someone is, the more likely they are to
put their problems "out there", instead of seeing their own part in
creating the circumstances that displease or thwart them.

The second one becomes aware "Hey! If I change what *I* am doing, some
of this stuff I don't like about what is happening to me will change
too!", real life-solutions begin to be possible. But most people like
your MIL will die without ever getting close to that transforming
step of actively taking responsibility -- for the whole of their
lives. Even though *not* taking responsibility is what seals them into
their chronic feeling of personal powerlessness ... which is at the
root of most abusive behavior.

If she can't have power over her own life, her own feelings, then
she'll by god show that she has power over the baby, or the dog.

Everybody stuck in a scenario like this loses. Everybody. Getting out
is the sanest, most positive thing you can do. She may -never- stop
playing power-games until there is no one left to have power over. And
then she will undoubtedly still be cursing those who left for
'abandoning' her, instead of sticking around for more abuse.

Deirdre

On Thu, 10 Jul 2003 13:55:02 -0500, "Karlee in Kansas"
> wrote:

>OMG, have you actually MET her??? That is SOOOOOO her. She is *never* the problem, its always someone else.
>
>Even as angry with her as I am, I feel pity for her (pity is not a feeling that I have very often) because she will
>probably be a very very lonely woman in the future, and will remain bitter over the cards that either she has chosen to
>play or that life has handed her. She blames 99.99999% of her way of being on her rather unhappy childhood, but I know
>lots and lots of people in this world that come from worse places than she did, and still turn out alright.
>
>Sad. Very Sad Indeed.
>
>Karlee in Kansas
>
>--
>Visit my web page! www.angelfire.com/ks3/karlee/index.html
>Our family page: http://groups.msn.com/brennanfamilypage

[Deirdre S.]

Ya, you betcha!

Deirdre

On Thu, 10 Jul 2003 14:01:49 -0500, "Karlee in Kansas"
> wrote:

>Self reliance in the "growed up world" is a
>very valuable tool to have in your back pocket.

[Kandice Seeber]

Goddamn. I just can't think of the words. I cannot read these types of
stories anymore, because they make me cry my eyes out. (((((((Karlee)))))))
Your MIL is pure evil.

--
Kandice Seeber
Air & Earth Designs
http://www.lampwork.net
"Karlee in Kansas" > wrote in message
...
> Long story...bear with me...
>
> I had found a german shepard for free in the local paper. Mike loves
german shepards. He worked with them and trained
> them during his 10 year stay in germany. I want more than anything in
this world to make my husband happy....and I knew
> that getting him that dog would do just that.
>
> Gretchen was about a year old, and no one had ever worked with her. She
had no manners to speak of, and would look at
> you like you had a second head if you requested the most menial of tasks
such as "sit". Very badly behaved dog, that
> suffered from separation anxiety, and was really really hyper, and
destructive if left alone. Not to mention she was
> LARGE. Close to 90 pounds of dog.
>
> MILFH would beat the dog when she would take her out to do her biz. MILFH
beat the dog because the dog would bolt out
> the door, dragging her behind. MILFH would beat the dog for peeing in the
house (poor thing didn't know any better),
> and MILFH would not let the dog roam the house. She would make the dog
lay at her feet all day, not taking her out on a
> regular basis, yell at *me* when I wanted to take her for a walk. She
made the dog lay at her feet by standing on the
> leash....keeping about 8 inches (plus or minus) between the dogs head and
the floor. If dog moved or attempted to go
> eat or drink, she got beat. Any attempt on my part to rescue the dog
would result in me being yelled at, called
> incompetent, being told I don't have the first clue about dogs (like she
is some kind of freaking authority)...basically
> I got verbally abused when all I was trying to do was rescue the dog.
>
> This was not the only dog in the house mind you. We also have a
pomeranian puppy named Kasey. Kasey is a black, tiny,
> fuzzy, dot compared to the german shepard. Kasey being little and a puppy
(only about 4 months old at that point in
> time) meant that MILFH thought that Kasey could do as she pleased. MILFH
would cuddle puppy all day, and thought it was
> "cute" when Kasey piddled in the house. Kasey could do no wrong, and
Gretchen could do no right. MILFH turned Kasey
> into the proverbial "barker" and "ankle biter"...3 months later, we are
still working with her on it.
>
> After MILFH left, I found out that that is her general way of playing
favorites. She did it with Mike and his brother.
> She does it with her sisters grandchildren. With her kids, she beat the
living hell out of Mike, turned him into her
> verbal punching bag as well as personal slave. His brother was left to do
as he wanted. Her sister has 6
> grandchildren. Two of them are very well cared for and very loving. The
other four have incompetent parents, and have
> no idea what it means to love someone. She will go to the first two's
b-day parties and buy them xmas gifts, but when
> it comes to the others, she always has some convenient excuse to not
attend their parties and not buy them gifts. This,
> mainly because she doesn't like the mother of the 4, and adores the mother
of the two. (Make sense or have I confused
> you yet?)
>
> Needless to say, Gretchen became too much for me to handle after MILFH
left. She would go on a rampage if she was left
> alone for more than 30 seconds. She peed on the bed, shredded the shades
and the shower curtain, knocked over a fish
> tank (I managed to save some of the fishies), and started to refuse to
poop anywhere but in my room. It broke my heart,
> but I found her a new family. Mike completely understood, despite the
warning from MILFH that by giving up a dog I
> couldn't control would mean the end of my marriage. I have a feeling that
Gretchen was ****ed at me for not being able
> to rescue her from the Evil One.
>
> MILFH maintains that she did not mistreat the dog. I guess in her sick
mind, beating the dog was no more mistreatment
> than beating her 3yo son bloody with a slat she ripped off of the playpen
after he peed his pants.
>
> Because I see how she plays favorites, and knows how she treats living,
feeling, beings, she will not have any contact
> with my children. I know that once Ellie gets here, Vincent (my son from
my previous marriage) will fade into the
> background and won't get hugs and kisses nor will he get gifts or cards
because he is not really her grandchild. I
> won't put him through that. (I know that some things I can not shield my
kids from, but rejection from a grandparent is
> something that I can protect him from)
>
> This whole hullabaloo boils down to a few simple points.
>
> 1. Favorites. She abuses those that aren't her favorite. She is unable
to love, much less show affection to more than
> one person at one time.
> 2. Jealousy. She is jealous of the fact that her son has found his
soulmate (his words) and loves her with everything
> that he has...and does not hesitate to show his wife that love every
chance he gets. Her marriage has never had love.
> 3. Self-centeredness (I think that is a word...). If the world does not
revolve around her, she will create an event to
> *make* it revolve around her. Uncle was dying....so she made a Federal
Case out of the fact that her Dr. wanted to run
> an MRI. I made her leave before she was ready, so she made a Federal Case
out of nothing (saying that I had mistreated
> her amongst other things). Her First Born Child wants nothing to do with
her, so she is making a *bigger* Federal Case
> out of nothing...stating the "hell she put me through since I left Kansas"
and "she is driving a wedge between us, and
> we have been apart far too long as it is" (as if he doesn't have a brain
and can't decide for himself if he wants
> contact with her or not). (The only hell that I put her through was in
telling her that I needed time and space and
> "please, let me come to you ok?" When I get angry and hurt, I go into
hermit mode. I avoid people at all cost unless
> contact is absolutely necessary. I just wanted her to leave me alone for
a while so I could sort things out. This
> would *not* have achieved the level that it has if she would have left me
alone and not badgered me endlessly about "why
> did you make me leave". I'm more angry and hurt over the things that she
has said and done since she has been gone than
> all the **** she pulled when she was here.) She has to either be "first
or worst" in everything. She had to be the
> first in the family to get married and have kids...resulting in a marriage
that has no love, and two children that she
> resented all their lives until they started to resent her. If you have a
sore toe, her leg is going to fall off. Her
> sister has a rare disease called Primary Lateral Sclerosis. Not long
after her sisters diagnosis, she claimed massive
> back problems and said that the bones in her spine were liquefying. Her
sister had to go on valium just to be able to
> talk, then Prozac on top of it so that she wouldn't be mean. MILFH
decided that she was "massively depressed" and also
> needed Prozac. MILFH sees 3 different doctors for different forms of pain
killers, and those doctors don't know that
> she is seeing the others, much less the fact that she is on the other
medications (morphine pills, percocet pills, and
> darvocet), that she eats like candy, claiming that she needs them to
survive the day. But mind you, she could beat the
> **** out of a 90 pound dog and throw around a 50 pound bag of dog food
like it was nothing. If she thinks that someone
> is watching she uses her cane...if she thinks that no one is watching,
there is no cane and no limp. Don't even get me
> started on the 45 minute drive around the parking lot of wal-mart.
>
> Just a side note...her story of the events is that she "never mistreated
the dog, Vincent, or Karlee. I did everything
> I could to help her out while I was there, and don't understand why she
made me leave. I never called her a bitch or a
> liar, and most certainly did NOT hint that she is a whore. I don't
understand why she is so angry with me and don't
> understand why she won't talk to me now." 1. You just read the story
about the dog. The story of my sons mistreatment
> and my mistreatment is equally as bad, if not worse. 2. She did jack ****
to help. She sat on her fat ass watching tv,
> yelling at us and the dog, or parked her butt in the kitchen painting her
little ceramic thingies. Wouldn't so much as
> empty her ash tray (trash can right beside the chair) or take her dishes
to the kitchen. Didn't offer to help when I
> was unpacking, cleaning, or napping. 3. She called me a bitch and a liar
in a conversation with Mike...he heard it
> with his own ears, and now she is trying to deny it. She insinuated that
I'm a whore in a conversation that she had
> with my neighbor...and I overheard the conversation. Lets not forget the
fact that she firmly believes that I'm
> cheating on Mike with an online friend of mine that was stationed in
Georgia at the time. Mike has met said friend in
> person, and knows that I could not achieve what she said I did while he
was gone. (I don't fly and it would have taken
> me 3 days to drive to Georgia on my own. He is now stationed in NY,
married, and deployed to Afghanistan for another 11
> months. I haven't talked to him online in nearly a month because of the
deployment)
>
> I'm sorry that the story was so long...but in explaining the dog story, I
felt the need to delve into her psyche a
> little more, so maybe you can see it from my point of view. I'm really
really angry over this, and have a tendency to
> start yelling when you are talking to me in person about it (I get really
loud when I get angry). I guess that I'm just
> a horrible person for not apologizing. Go ahead. Flame me. I'm beyond
caring now. In fact, I'm mad enough to spit
> silver nails.
>
> Karlee in Kansas, who realizes that some people are alive simply because
its illegal to kill them
>
> --
> Visit my web page! www.angelfire.com/ks3/karlee/index.html
> Our family page: http://groups.msn.com/brennanfamilypage
>
>
> --
> "Dr. Sooz" > wrote in message
...
> | What did MILFH do to Mike's dog..?
> | ~~
> | Sooz
> | -------
> | ESBC
> | Dr. Sooz's Bead Links
> | http://airandearth.netfirms.com/soozlinkslist.html
> | One of the advantages of being disorderly is that one is constantly
making
> | exciting discoveries. ~ A. A. Milne
> |
>
>

[Deirdre S.]

I can see it bulging there, like a giant gumball...

Deirdre

On Thu, 10 Jul 2003 17:17:36 -0400, Kathy N-V
> wrote:

>
>Tongue firmly in cheek,

[Deirdre S.]

If we all did this, the world would change -- overnight. And not for
the worse, either.

It is a hard thing to begin to do, because of all the programming we
absorb that says "Don't go there!", but once you start, it is like
growing wings.

Deirdre

On Thu, 10 Jul 2003 16:43:49 -0700, "Diana Curtis"
> wrote:

>they self direct their lives

[Christina Peterson]

This is also the prime characteristic of the specific mental illness called
"Narcissism". It does not mean someone thinks they are so wonderful that
they like to looks at themselves in mrrors or the like. Does not mean they
are in love with themselves. AT ALL. It means that someone is incapable of
seeing others as having their own egos, of owning themselves, of having a
separate identity for the person with this disorder. And since they are the
scenter of everything, it is almost impossible for them to think they are
unwell. That they are wrong. Not that they always want to be right, but
that they are incapable of thinking someone else's conclusions or even
thoughts can possibly be right if they differ from their own. This is not a
way they CHOOSE to think.

Tina


"Deirdre S." > wrote in message
...
> But she is probably the sort of person who always sees 'the problem'
> as being -other- people, not herself, so she is very unlikely to seek
> that kind of help, and wouldn't make use of it if it were offered to
> her for free.
>
> "If only the rest of the world did what I want, everything would be
> OK" is probably her unquestioned POV, so it is everyone else who ought
> to change, in order to make things better for her.
>
> Deirdre
>
> On 09 Jul 2003 19:49:16 GMT, (Dr. Sooz)
> wrote:
>
> >>(((((((Karlee))))))) That all just makes me so sad. She really needs
some
> >>professional help.
> >
> >What Kandice said.
> >~~
> >Sooz
> >-------
> >ESBC
> >Dr. Sooz's Bead Links
> >http://airandearth.netfirms.com/soozlinkslist.html
> >One of the advantages of being disorderly is that one is constantly
making
> >exciting discoveries. ~ A. A. Milne
>

[Christina Peterson]

The flip side of Nascissism might be "Codependency". If I change someone
else it will change me and my life. You can't fix anyone else. And if you
could, it wouldn't fix you.

This doesn't necessarily equate to your observations, Dierdre, but it's part
of this whole complex.

Tina


"Deirdre S." > wrote in message
...
> I know the -pattern- very well.
>
> The more deeply unconscious someone is, the more likely they are to
> put their problems "out there", instead of seeing their own part in
> creating the circumstances that displease or thwart them.
>
> The second one becomes aware "Hey! If I change what *I* am doing, some
> of this stuff I don't like about what is happening to me will change
> too!", real life-solutions begin to be possible. But most people like
> your MIL will die without ever getting close to that transforming
> step of actively taking responsibility -- for the whole of their
> lives. Even though *not* taking responsibility is what seals them into
> their chronic feeling of personal powerlessness ... which is at the
> root of most abusive behavior.
>
> If she can't have power over her own life, her own feelings, then
> she'll by god show that she has power over the baby, or the dog.
>
> Everybody stuck in a scenario like this loses. Everybody. Getting out
> is the sanest, most positive thing you can do. She may -never- stop
> playing power-games until there is no one left to have power over. And
> then she will undoubtedly still be cursing those who left for
> 'abandoning' her, instead of sticking around for more abuse.
>
> Deirdre
>
> On Thu, 10 Jul 2003 13:55:02 -0500, "Karlee in Kansas"
> > wrote:
>
> >OMG, have you actually MET her??? That is SOOOOOO her. She is *never*
the problem, its always someone else.
> >
> >Even as angry with her as I am, I feel pity for her (pity is not a
feeling that I have very often) because she will
> >probably be a very very lonely woman in the future, and will remain
bitter over the cards that either she has chosen to
> >play or that life has handed her. She blames 99.99999% of her way of
being on her rather unhappy childhood, but I know
> >lots and lots of people in this world that come from worse places than
she did, and still turn out alright.
> >
> >Sad. Very Sad Indeed.
> >
> >Karlee in Kansas
> >
> >--
> >Visit my web page! www.angelfire.com/ks3/karlee/index.html
> >Our family page: http://groups.msn.com/brennanfamilypage
>

[Diana Curtis]

A dykish streak, so *thats* what it is!
The women I have met that I admire most have that. They dress just as you
describe, for function, not fashion, and they self direct their lives. They
are some of the warmest and most feminine people I have ever met, aside from
this young man in town who has a definiate dykish streak of his own. ;-)
Diana
slightly tongue in cheek

--
http://photos.yahoo.com/lunamom44
"Deirdre S." > wrote in message
...
> For me, makeup is a 'never' thing. And dresses, even for weddings and
> funerals, not likely.
>
> And if anyone called me a dyke, I would just nod and grin, because
> that is exactly what I am. And delighted to have the power tools to
> prove it. ;-)
>
> A dykish streak, even in straight women, is a useful thing. It says "I
> am capable, competent, and I dress for action, not fashion...
> especially when the prescribed fashion is 'cute and helpless'."
>
>
> Deirdre
>
>
> On 10 Jul 2003 02:47:37 GMT, (Rachel T.)
> wrote:
>
> >>>See, I'm a royal screw up in their eyes cause I'm mouthy, don't take
crap,
> >and I'm not "feminine enough" (Bout the only time I get into a dress is
for a
> >wedding, funeral, or Christmas, and even
> >rarer are the times that I wear make up...mom accuses me of not having
any
> >pride in myself...about two years ago gramma
> >called me a "dyke").
> >
> >Well, we'd get along famously! The last time I was in a dress,
was....jeez, I
> >don't remember. I don't even wear them for funerals anymore. And make
up...
> >that's a rare thing anymore
>

[Christina Peterson]

This is funny to me. I think I told you about the partner of a friend from
Delta, who came on a trip with her to Alaska. She thought she was in
Lesbian Heaven until she found out all these tough women were straight!

One of my closest friends here is a very soft spoken Christian women. She's
very sweet. She also wears men's clothes to accomodate her broad shoulders,
works in corrections, has multiple black belts and looks very much like a
dyke. She's straight but shares one of the best properties of lesbian
relationships. She and her partner (husband) have a mix of roles in their
relationship that relies on individual skills, rather than traditional
(male/female) relationships. Oh yes, they are also mixed race.

Since my divorce, but especially since being involved with the strong women
I know in martial arts, and since working in therapy, and since Pete came
into my life, I have been regaining my power.

Sometimes when I've walked someplace with April, we'll notice people
crossing the street. I don't know if it's because the walks are narrow, or
if that's what they intended all along, but April surprised me but saying we
might intimidate people. This was very strangle to me, because I've been a
wuss for so long I can't imagine myself as intimidating.

Looking a little closer. Well, April can be very intimidating -- she
sometimes does look like the black belted corrections/security person she
is. And though I don't think I look anything like scary, I also don't look
timid. And people aren't used to seeing strong women as norman, and
espescially not two of them.

I don't wear dresses much anymore, because of the mosquitoes in summer, and
cold in winter. But even in a dress, and even gazing adoringly into my
husband's eyes, that "dykish streak", that strength is a good thing.

Tina


"Deirdre S." > wrote in message
...
> For me, makeup is a 'never' thing. And dresses, even for weddings and
> funerals, not likely.
>
> And if anyone called me a dyke, I would just nod and grin, because
> that is exactly what I am. And delighted to have the power tools to
> prove it. ;-)
>
> A dykish streak, even in straight women, is a useful thing. It says "I
> am capable, competent, and I dress for action, not fashion...
> especially when the prescribed fashion is 'cute and helpless'."
>
>
> Deirdre
>
>
> On 10 Jul 2003 02:47:37 GMT, (Rachel T.)
> wrote:
>
> >>>See, I'm a royal screw up in their eyes cause I'm mouthy, don't take
crap,
> >and I'm not "feminine enough" (Bout the only time I get into a dress is
for a
> >wedding, funeral, or Christmas, and even
> >rarer are the times that I wear make up...mom accuses me of not having
any
> >pride in myself...about two years ago gramma
> >called me a "dyke").
> >
> >Well, we'd get along famously! The last time I was in a dress,
was....jeez, I
> >don't remember. I don't even wear them for funerals anymore. And make
up...
> >that's a rare thing anymore
>

[Lee S. Billings]

In article <1057879175.815665@prawn>, says...
>
>This is also the prime characteristic of the specific mental illness called
>"Narcissism". It does not mean someone thinks they are so wonderful that
>they like to looks at themselves in mirrors or the like. Does not mean they
>are in love with themselves. AT ALL. It means that someone is incapable of
>seeing others as having their own egos, of owning themselves, of having a
>separate identity for the person with this disorder. And since they are the
>center of everything, it is almost impossible for them to think they are
>unwell. That they are wrong. Not that they always want to be right, but
>that they are incapable of thinking someone else's conclusions or even
>thoughts can possibly be right if they differ from their own. This is not a
>way they CHOOSE to think.

A lot of this sounds like the way my parents acted about me. Not about the rest
of the world -- just *me*. Everything that was less than ideal about our family
life was my fault, and if *I* would just change, it would all be perfect. Much
later, I concluded that they really had no concept of me as being distinct from
them -- or of themselves as two individuals distinct from each other. We were
all supposed to be pieces of this unit called The Family rather than being
separate people who were related to one another. Is there a name for that sort
of thinking?

Celine

--
Handmade jewelry at http://www.rubylane.com/shops/starcat
"Only the powers of evil claim that doing good is boring."
-- Diane Duane, _Nightfall at Algemron_

[Diana Curtis]

I havent seen the movie, but Im guessing that aside from the occasional 'ya,
sure, you betcha' you hardly fit the stereotype. You dont eat lutefisk do
you?
Diana

--
http://photos.yahoo.com/lunamom44

"Deirdre S." > wrote in message
...
> Heck, I was flaunting it... <vbg>
>
> Can you see/hear me as a character in _Fargo_?
>
> Deirdre
>
> On Thu, 10 Jul 2003 16:39:41 -0700, "Diana Curtis"
> > wrote:
>
> >Ooh... youre midwestern is showing!!!
> >Diana
>

[Diana Curtis]

I once called my sister a strong capable woman. She gently corrected me,
strong, capable *person* . :-) She was a pretty cool *person*.
Diana

--
http://photos.yahoo.com/lunamom44
"Kathy N-V" > wrote in message
.com...
> On Thu, 10 Jul 2003 14:38:14 -0400, Deirdre S. wrote
> (in message >):
>
> > For me, makeup is a 'never' thing. And dresses, even for weddings and
> > funerals, not likely.
>
> There are those of us with serious allergies, for whom any makeup causes
days
> of rashes and pain, so we don't bother. I did wear some very light makeup
> for my _own_ wedding, though. I also wear dresses once in a while,
because I
> like them. I also like Birkenstocks and socks, though not exactly with
> dresses. Exactly whose business is it to tell me what I should/shouldn't
> wear? It's not like Mr. Blackwell is looking at me, calling me a fashion
> disaster.
>
> > And if anyone called me a dyke, I would just nod and grin, because
> > that is exactly what I am. And delighted to have the power tools to
> > prove it. ;-)
>
> I would do the same thing, just to mess up the other person. My sexuality
is
> my business (and DHs, since we have decided to be monogamous). No one
else's
> - and if someone were rude enough to speculate on it, I'd be happy to mess
> with their head.
>
> > A dykish streak, even in straight women, is a useful thing. It says "I
> > am capable, competent, and I dress for action, not fashion...
> > especially when the prescribed fashion is 'cute and helpless'."
>
> I come from a very long line of amazingly strong women, so I consider it
> normal behavior. But if someone considers that "dykish," I'll take it as
a
> compliment. If being a strong, capable woman is dykish, so be it.
>
> Kathy N-V
>
> > Deirdre
> >
> >
> > On 10 Jul 2003 02:47:37 GMT, (Rachel T.)
> > wrote:
>
>

[Diana Curtis]

The hard part for me is figuring out what I am choosing to do, or not to do,
because of that programming. Its hard to figure out autonomy.
Diana

--
http://photos.yahoo.com/lunamom44
"Deirdre S." > wrote in message
...
> If we all did this, the world would change -- overnight. And not for
> the worse, either.
>
> It is a hard thing to begin to do, because of all the programming we
> absorb that says "Don't go there!", but once you start, it is like
> growing wings.
>
> Deirdre
>
> On Thu, 10 Jul 2003 16:43:49 -0700, "Diana Curtis"
> > wrote:
>
> >they self direct their lives
>

[Deirdre S.]

You have just described my mother... and a lot of other people. Being
able to entertain another point of view, one that is unlike your own,
is a major indicator of psychological strength, and the foundation of
tolerance, if not love itself. IMO.

Deirdre

On Thu, 10 Jul 2003 23:19:37 GMT, "Christina Peterson"
> wrote:

>This is also the prime characteristic of the specific mental illness called
>"Narcissism". It does not mean someone thinks they are so wonderful that
>they like to looks at themselves in mrrors or the like. Does not mean they
>are in love with themselves. AT ALL. It means that someone is incapable of
>seeing others as having their own egos, of owning themselves, of having a
>separate identity for the person with this disorder. And since they are the
>scenter of everything, it is almost impossible for them to think they are
>unwell. That they are wrong. Not that they always want to be right, but
>that they are incapable of thinking someone else's conclusions or even
>thoughts can possibly be right if they differ from their own. This is not a
>way they CHOOSE to think.
>
>Tina
>
>
>"Deirdre S." > wrote in message
...
>> But she is probably the sort of person who always sees 'the problem'
>> as being -other- people, not herself, so she is very unlikely to seek
>> that kind of help, and wouldn't make use of it if it were offered to
>> her for free.
>>
>> "If only the rest of the world did what I want, everything would be
>> OK" is probably her unquestioned POV, so it is everyone else who ought
>> to change, in order to make things better for her.
>>
>> Deirdre
>>
>> On 09 Jul 2003 19:49:16 GMT, (Dr. Sooz)
>> wrote:
>>
>> >>(((((((Karlee))))))) That all just makes me so sad. She really needs
>some
>> >>professional help.
>> >
>> >What Kandice said.
>> >~~
>> >Sooz
>> >-------
>> >ESBC
>> >Dr. Sooz's Bead Links
>> >http://airandearth.netfirms.com/soozlinkslist.html
>> >One of the advantages of being disorderly is that one is constantly
>making
>> >exciting discoveries. ~ A. A. Milne
>>
>

[Deirdre S.]

A friend (a straight woman) once asked me in an irritated tone of
voice why she gets mistakenly called 'sir' so often. She is not
particularly masculine-looking, and it baffled her.

I considered for a moment and then said "I think it is because you
walk and stand as if you felt entitled to take up space". In other
words, there was nothing self-effacing about her physical presence or
manner.

It was a lightbulb moment for both of us about what the subtle
cultural prescriptions for women seem to be, and how strange it seems
to some people when we ignore them. So much so that they don't really
know *what to identify us as*.

Deirdre

On Thu, 10 Jul 2003 23:47:20 GMT, "Christina Peterson"
> wrote:

>This is funny to me. I think I told you about the partner of a friend from
>Delta, who came on a trip with her to Alaska. She thought she was in
>Lesbian Heaven until she found out all these tough women were straight!
>
>One of my closest friends here is a very soft spoken Christian women. She's
>very sweet. She also wears men's clothes to accomodate her broad shoulders,
>works in corrections, has multiple black belts and looks very much like a
>dyke. She's straight but shares one of the best properties of lesbian
>relationships. She and her partner (husband) have a mix of roles in their
>relationship that relies on individual skills, rather than traditional
>(male/female) relationships. Oh yes, they are also mixed race.
>
>Since my divorce, but especially since being involved with the strong women
>I know in martial arts, and since working in therapy, and since Pete came
>into my life, I have been regaining my power.
>
>Sometimes when I've walked someplace with April, we'll notice people
>crossing the street. I don't know if it's because the walks are narrow, or
>if that's what they intended all along, but April surprised me but saying we
>might intimidate people. This was very strangle to me, because I've been a
>wuss for so long I can't imagine myself as intimidating.
>
>Looking a little closer. Well, April can be very intimidating -- she
>sometimes does look like the black belted corrections/security person she
>is. And though I don't think I look anything like scary, I also don't look
>timid. And people aren't used to seeing strong women as norman, and
>espescially not two of them.
>
>I don't wear dresses much anymore, because of the mosquitoes in summer, and
>cold in winter. But even in a dress, and even gazing adoringly into my
>husband's eyes, that "dykish streak", that strength is a good thing.
>
>Tina
>
>
>"Deirdre S." > wrote in message
...
>> For me, makeup is a 'never' thing. And dresses, even for weddings and
>> funerals, not likely.
>>
>> And if anyone called me a dyke, I would just nod and grin, because
>> that is exactly what I am. And delighted to have the power tools to
>> prove it. ;-)
>>
>> A dykish streak, even in straight women, is a useful thing. It says "I
>> am capable, competent, and I dress for action, not fashion...
>> especially when the prescribed fashion is 'cute and helpless'."
>>
>>
>> Deirdre
>>
>>
>> On 10 Jul 2003 02:47:37 GMT, (Rachel T.)
>> wrote:
>>
>> >>>See, I'm a royal screw up in their eyes cause I'm mouthy, don't take
>crap,
>> >and I'm not "feminine enough" (Bout the only time I get into a dress is
>for a
>> >wedding, funeral, or Christmas, and even
>> >rarer are the times that I wear make up...mom accuses me of not having
>any
>> >pride in myself...about two years ago gramma
>> >called me a "dyke").
>> >
>> >Well, we'd get along famously! The last time I was in a dress,
>was....jeez, I
>> >don't remember. I don't even wear them for funerals anymore. And make
>up...
>> >that's a rare thing anymore
>>
>

[Lee S. Billings]

In article >,
says...
>
>You have just described my mother... and a lot of other people. Being
>able to entertain another point of view, one that is unlike your own,
>is a major indicator of psychological strength, and the foundation of
>tolerance, if not love itself. IMO.

It should be noted here that the inability to entertain *some* points of view
is not the same as the inability to entertain *any* other point of view. For
example, I would never WANT to be able to understand the reasoning that would
lead someone to join the KKK, or to lock their child in a closet for hours.

Celine

--
Handmade jewelry at http://www.rubylane.com/shops/starcat
"Only the powers of evil claim that doing good is boring."
-- Diane Duane, _Nightfall at Algemron_

[Christina Peterson]

Being overly controlling. Being insecure. And very often a result of PTSD.

Tina


"Lee S. Billings" > wrote in message
...
> In article <1057879175.815665@prawn>, says...
> >
> >This is also the prime characteristic of the specific mental illness
called
> >"Narcissism". It does not mean someone thinks they are so wonderful that
> >they like to looks at themselves in mirrors or the like. Does not mean
they
> >are in love with themselves. AT ALL. It means that someone is incapable
of
> >seeing others as having their own egos, of owning themselves, of having a
> >separate identity for the person with this disorder. And since they are
the
> >center of everything, it is almost impossible for them to think they are
> >unwell. That they are wrong. Not that they always want to be right, but
> >that they are incapable of thinking someone else's conclusions or even
> >thoughts can possibly be right if they differ from their own. This is
not a
> >way they CHOOSE to think.
>
> A lot of this sounds like the way my parents acted about me. Not about the
rest
> of the world -- just *me*. Everything that was less than ideal about our
family
> life was my fault, and if *I* would just change, it would all be perfect.
Much
> later, I concluded that they really had no concept of me as being distinct
from
> them -- or of themselves as two individuals distinct from each other. We
were
> all supposed to be pieces of this unit called The Family rather than being
> separate people who were related to one another. Is there a name for that
sort
> of thinking?
>
> Celine
>
> --
> Handmade jewelry at http://www.rubylane.com/shops/starcat
> "Only the powers of evil claim that doing good is boring."
> -- Diane Duane, _Nightfall at Algemron_
>

[Deirdre S.]

No one with functional tastebuds eats lutefisk unless it is on a dare.

Deirdre

On Thu, 10 Jul 2003 18:55:32 -0700, "Diana Curtis"
> wrote:

>I havent seen the movie, but Im guessing that aside from the occasional 'ya,
>sure, you betcha' you hardly fit the stereotype. You dont eat lutefisk do
>you?
>Diana

[Sjpolyclay]

>She and her partner (husband) have a mix of roles in their
>relationship that relies on individual skills, rather than traditional
>(male/female) relationships.

My DH and I are that way too. "from each according to ability, to each
according to need" and not based on who traditionally gets the frilly apron and
who gets the power tools. And when you are strong enough to be yourself and
happy that way too, it is VERY intimidating to some people. This is a thing
about personal power, not about who has the dangly bits. And many people are
very uncomfortable with the idea of a woman accessing and using her own power.
That's why you got called a dyke, Karlee, that's why I got called a dyke and
slut in school, WAY before I had any kind of sexual intimacy with ANYbody. Its
about power--being strongwilled enough to talk to the boys, or the grownups,
and hardheaded enough to say "no" when others want you to do it their way and
you don't. That's very frustrating to people who think they have an inborn,
God-given right to tell "people like you" (children, spouses, co-workers,
neighbors or whatever we be) What To Do. So they get angry and that doesn't
work either. We must be truly nasty to cause such bother, right?? That's all it
boils down to---the name calling, the hitting--being bratty because of not
getting one's way. Its out-of-control child behavior, and many people get away
with it their whole miserable lives. Its very sad.


Sarajane

Sarajane's Polymer Clay Gallery
http://www.polyclay.com

view my auctions at:
http://www.polyclay.com/Collage/auction.htm

[Deirdre S.]

Here we differ, then. Because I -do- want to understand those things,
However, I would never want to -be- the person experiencing those
points of view, or feeling justified in taking those actions.

I see all the evidence that such people exist, I feel the effects of
their presence in the world, directly and indirectly ... and I know
that the world we co-habit isn't going to become more liveable for me
and the people I like until fewer and fewer people take steps blindly
in the direction of hate and harm, and more and more choose different
paths instead.

That means I want to understand the haters and the harmers, and what
creates them. Even more, I want to understand what would have to
change in order to reduce the hate and the harm and allow something
different to take its place.

Deirdre

On 11 Jul 2003 03:55:37 GMT, (Lee S.
Billings) wrote:

>I would never WANT to be able to understand the reasoning that would
>lead someone to join the KKK, or to lock their child in a closet for hours

[Sjpolyclay]

>I would never WANT to be able to understand the reasoning that would
>lead someone to join the KKK, or to lock their child in a closet for hours.

Celine, the truly awful thing is that sometimes the closet can be a very safe
place, by comparison.
Sarajane

Sarajane's Polymer Clay Gallery
http://www.polyclay.com

view my auctions at:
http://www.polyclay.com/Collage/auction.htm

[Deirdre S.]

Damn right... and appallingly true.

Deirdre

On 11 Jul 2003 15:34:58 GMT, (Sjpolyclay)
wrote:

>Celine, the truly awful thing is that sometimes the closet can be a very safe
>place, by comparison.

[Dr. Sooz]

>aside from
>this young man in town who has a definiate dykish streak of his own. ;-)
>Diana
>slightly tongue in cheek

....tongue in *where*? ;-)
~~
Sooz
-------
ESBC
Dr. Sooz's Bead Links
http://airandearth.netfirms.com/soozlinkslist.html
One of the advantages of being disorderly is that one is constantly making
exciting discoveries. ~ A. A. Milne

[Dr. Sooz]

>And people aren't used to seeing strong women as norman

Tina, I just love this typo.
~~
Sooz
-------
ESBC
Dr. Sooz's Bead Links
http://airandearth.netfirms.com/soozlinkslist.html
One of the advantages of being disorderly is that one is constantly making
exciting discoveries. ~ A. A. Milne

[Sjpolyclay]

>. Any particular title you'd
>suggest I start with?
>
>It does sound up my street...

I don't recall which was the first in the series--all stand alone, but tie in
with references. Try to find the first one if you can, maybe by publication
date? I went back and forth with whatever the library had available at the
time, and that worked ok too.

The people involved are all Characters with a capitol C and form their own
family unit out of the outcasts that they all are. Good Badguys, who get the
Bad Badguys in the end.
Sarajane

Sarajane's Polymer Clay Gallery
http://www.polyclay.com

view my auctions at:
http://www.polyclay.com/Collage/auction.htm

[Sjpolyclay]

>http://www.booksnbytes.com/authors/vachss_andrew.html
>
>we have them listed by copyright date.

cool!! Thanks, Vicki!
Sarajane

Sarajane's Polymer Clay Gallery
http://www.polyclay.com

view my auctions at:
http://www.polyclay.com/Collage/auction.htm

[Christina Peterson]

I too am interested in pathology. Sometimes we have a related experience we
don't recognize. My mother was abusive (unintentionally), but would never
normally be seen as such. But reading more extreme accounts of abuse and
their effects, showed me that these same effects in me were also caused by
abuse. Once I understand that I can overcome a lot of the damage.
Recognizing pathological behaviour also helps me help myself and others
recognize harmful behaviours and refuse to be victimized by it.

Tina



"Deirdre S." > wrote in message
...
> Here we differ, then. Because I -do- want to understand those things,
> However, I would never want to -be- the person experiencing those
> points of view, or feeling justified in taking those actions.
>
> I see all the evidence that such people exist, I feel the effects of
> their presence in the world, directly and indirectly ... and I know
> that the world we co-habit isn't going to become more liveable for me
> and the people I like until fewer and fewer people take steps blindly
> in the direction of hate and harm, and more and more choose different
> paths instead.
>
> That means I want to understand the haters and the harmers, and what
> creates them. Even more, I want to understand what would have to
> change in order to reduce the hate and the harm and allow something
> different to take its place.
>
> Deirdre
>
> On 11 Jul 2003 03:55:37 GMT, (Lee S.
> Billings) wrote:
>
> >I would never WANT to be able to understand the reasoning that would
> >lead someone to join the KKK, or to lock their child in a closet for
hours
>

[Christina Peterson]

Uh.................. cheeks?

Tina


"Diana Curtis" > wrote in message
...
> Oooooh, aren't you the *cheeky* one?!!!
> Diana :-P
>
> --
> http://photos.yahoo.com/lunamom44
> "Dr. Sooz" > wrote in message
> ...
> > >aside from
> > >this young man in town who has a definiate dykish streak of his own.
;-)
> > >Diana
> > >slightly tongue in cheek
> >
> > ...tongue in *where*? ;-)
> > ~~
> > Sooz
> > -------
> > ESBC
> > Dr. Sooz's Bead Links
> > http://airandearth.netfirms.com/soozlinkslist.html
> > One of the advantages of being disorderly is that one is constantly
making
> > exciting discoveries. ~ A. A. Milne
> >
>
>

[Dr. Sooz]

>Oooooh, aren't you the *cheeky* one?!!!
>Diana :-P

Haw! Watch your tongue young lady!
~~
Sooz
-------
ESBC
Dr. Sooz's Bead Links
http://airandearth.netfirms.com/soozlinkslist.html
One of the advantages of being disorderly is that one is constantly making
exciting discoveries. ~ A. A. Milne

[Diana Curtis]

Oooooh, aren't you the *cheeky* one?!!!
Diana :-P

--
http://photos.yahoo.com/lunamom44
"Dr. Sooz" > wrote in message
...
> >aside from
> >this young man in town who has a definiate dykish streak of his own. ;-)
> >Diana
> >slightly tongue in cheek
>
> ...tongue in *where*? ;-)
> ~~
> Sooz
> -------
> ESBC
> Dr. Sooz's Bead Links
> http://airandearth.netfirms.com/soozlinkslist.html
> One of the advantages of being disorderly is that one is constantly making
> exciting discoveries. ~ A. A. Milne
>

[Sjpolyclay]

>I too am interested in pathology.

Me too. Had I gone to medical school, I would have been a reconstructive
surgeon or a forensic pathologist.
Sarajane

Sarajane's Polymer Clay Gallery
http://www.polyclay.com

view my auctions at:
http://www.polyclay.com/Collage/auction.htm

[Deirdre S.]

A few folks actually like it. But only a tiny few. I honestly think it
is like a kid eating a worm to impress his friends with his iron
constitution and stop-at-nothing daring.

Me, on the other hand, I'll stick to the pickled herring, which I only
get at Sandstrom family Christmas dinner...

Not something I'd keep in the fridge, but interesting once in a while.
And just as scandahoovian as lutefisk.

Deirdre

On Fri, 11 Jul 2003 16:28:14 -0700, "Diana Curtis"
> wrote:

>I think Norwegians (scandahoovians in general) eat it at Christmas time as a
>sort of penance..
>For what, I dont know.
>Diana

[Christina Peterson]

I'm just a little East of you. Dad's parents were from Denmark, born in the
1860s. His mother was a professional woman who made and graded butter for
export. Mom's mother was from western German, where her family were
educated publicans (inn keepers). Her father was a blacksmith's son born in
an E German city which is now in Poland, and became a (self educated)
curator of an art museum in Berlin. They were born about 35 years later
than my father's parents, when marrying someone from a village 20 miles away
was no longer exotic.

The food we liked was Aebfel Skivers. A spherical pancake with a slice
(skiver) of apple (Aebfel) in it.

Tina





"Helen C" > wrote in message
news:7yXPa.45139$Ph3.3927@sccrnsc04...
> How about lefse? So much better than lutefisk. (For those that don't
know
> it's a scandinavian version of tortillas, potato based instead of corn
meal,
> with butter and cinnamon sugar. Excellent slightly warm)
>
> Later,
>
> Helen C
>
> 1/2 Finn, 1/4 German & 1/4 Polish (know any good jokes? Mom had a polish
> bowling ball {a brick painted black} and a polish pencil {eraser on both
> ends})
>
>
>
>

[Deirdre S.]

I -love- lefse. It is *wonderful* with melted butter and cinnamon
sugar. And I was sometimes know to do a lefse-dog, as well. Half a
sheet of lefse rolled around a hot dog, with some melted cheese. Num.

But these are historical treats, not part of the present. I'd have to
take a holiday from my low-carb routine in order to have any these
days.

Swedish potato sausage, OTH, is scrumptious, and within my daily
allowance...

Deirdre

On Sat, 12 Jul 2003 17:27:31 GMT, "Helen C" >
wrote:

>How about lefse? So much better than lutefisk. (For those that don't know
>it's a scandinavian version of tortillas, potato based instead of corn meal,
>with butter and cinnamon sugar. Excellent slightly warm)
>
>Later,
>
>Helen C
>
>1/2 Finn, 1/4 German & 1/4 Polish (know any good jokes? Mom had a polish
>bowling ball {a brick painted black} and a polish pencil {eraser on both
>ends})
>
>
>

[BeckiBead]

speaking of eating weird foods, I am sitting here eating BACON which the Atkins
diet book describes as a "snack."

LMAO -- and watching my waistline shrink...


Becki
"In between the moon and you, the angels have a better view of the crumbling
difference between wrong and right.." -- Counting Crows

[Beads1947]

Becki,
as long as it's not beggin' strips.
patti

[Deirdre S.]

Low carb really does work.

Deirdre (who is waaaaaay behind reading messages... )

On 13 Jul 2003 01:46:28 GMT, (BeckiBead)
wrote:

>speaking of eating weird foods, I am sitting here eating BACON which the Atkins
>diet book describes as a "snack."
>
>LMAO -- and watching my waistline shrink...
>
>
>Becki
>"In between the moon and you, the angels have a better view of the crumbling
>difference between wrong and right.." -- Counting Crows

[C. Gregory]

atkins kicks butt, did it for 3 months once and lost 30 lbs. Started really
missing potatoes and pasta tho.....


"Deirdre S." > wrote in message
...
> Low carb really does work.
>
> Deirdre (who is waaaaaay behind reading messages... )
>
> On 13 Jul 2003 01:46:28 GMT, (BeckiBead)
> wrote:
>
> >speaking of eating weird foods, I am sitting here eating BACON which the
Atkins
> >diet book describes as a "snack."
> >
> >LMAO -- and watching my waistline shrink...
> >
> >
> >Becki
> >"In between the moon and you, the angels have a better view of the
crumbling
> >difference between wrong and right.." -- Counting Crows
>
>

[melinda]

C. Gregory > wrote:
> atkins kicks butt, did it for 3 months once and lost 30 lbs. Started really
> missing potatoes and pasta tho.....

I don't know if what I'm doing could be called a diet or not :-)
Child-birth and breast-feeding?

--
Melinda
<http://cust.idl.com.au/athol>

[Dr. Sooz]

Anything you eat -- your behavior pattern of eating -- is called your diet. A
reducing diet is what people now have shortened to call a "diet". It's a
misnomer.

>I don't know if what I'm doing could be called a diet or not :-)
>Child-birth and breast-feeding?


~~
Sooz
-------
ESBC
~ Dr. Sooz's Bead Links
http://airandearth.netfirms.com/soozlinkslist.html
~ Bead Notes: Beading information A - Z
http://www.lampwork.net/beadnotes.html

[melinda]

vj > wrote:
> > :

> ]I don't know if what I'm doing could be called a diet or not :-)
> ]Child-birth and breast-feeding?

> it's supposed to be.
> me, i gained weight. **sigh**

Well I might be loosing weight (hard to tell ATM) by Joshua is gaining!
About 350g in 11 days!

--
Melinda
<http://cust.idl.com.au/athol>

[Kalera Stratton]

In article <1058508565.472692@webserver>,
melinda > wrote:

> Well I might be loosing weight (hard to tell ATM) by Joshua is gaining!
> About 350g in 11 days!

Wow, that's great!

--
-Kalera
Mom of Juliet, 5, Sam, 3, and Ophelia, born 5/31/03
Wife of the incomparable Moxley of www.spaceplex.com
See us at www.strattonhome.org

[melinda]

Kalera Stratton > wrote:
> In article <1058508565.472692@webserver>,
> melinda > wrote:

> > Well I might be loosing weight (hard to tell ATM) by Joshua is gaining!
> > About 350g in 11 days!

> Wow, that's great!

He weighed in about 7 pounds 8 ounces when born, he now weighs in over
8 pounds on Friday - 16 days old!

--
Melinda
<http://cust.idl.com.au/athol>

[Christina Peterson]

Aren't babies great!

Tina


"melinda" > wrote in message
news:1058677075.598952@webserver...
> Kalera Stratton > wrote:
> > In article <1058508565.472692@webserver>,
> > melinda > wrote:
>
> > > Well I might be loosing weight (hard to tell ATM) by Joshua is
gaining!
> > > About 350g in 11 days!
>
> > Wow, that's great!
>
> He weighed in about 7 pounds 8 ounces when born, he now weighs in over
> 8 pounds on Friday - 16 days old!
>
> --
> Melinda
> <http://cust.idl.com.au/athol>