Paper Making For Kids From Wood With Baking Soda?

[JMorris]

Hi there!

I'm a Dad who is getting ready to visit a cottage with his daughter
and other relatives. Thinking about maybe trying to make some paper.
And have some nice downloads from the web for this.

Wondering if we could do this directly from grasses or wood. Maybe
some old rotton poplar trees. Mash 'em up, boil 'em up and then you
can do the paper thing.

YOUR QUESTION (Mr./Ms. Phelps!): To make paper you need to get the
lignin glue out of the fibers. Apparently either a strong acid or a
strong base will do this. Typically, in a hobby type situation, you
would use lye.

Is it possible to use something a little less dangerous. I mean,
having to wear gloves and goggles doesn't sound like much fun.

Would lemon juice or vinegar or baking soda work (well, not at the
same time)?

Look forward to any thoughts!

John-In-Toronto

[Repeating Decimal]

in article , JMorris at
wrote on 7/12/03 9:53 AM:

> Hi there!
>
> I'm a Dad who is getting ready to visit a cottage with his daughter
> and other relatives. Thinking about maybe trying to make some paper.
> And have some nice downloads from the web for this.
>
> Wondering if we could do this directly from grasses or wood. Maybe
> some old rotton poplar trees. Mash 'em up, boil 'em up and then you
> can do the paper thing.
>
> YOUR QUESTION (Mr./Ms. Phelps!): To make paper you need to get the
> lignin glue out of the fibers. Apparently either a strong acid or a
> strong base will do this. Typically, in a hobby type situation, you
> would use lye.
>
> Is it possible to use something a little less dangerous. I mean,
> having to wear gloves and goggles doesn't sound like much fun.
>
> Would lemon juice or vinegar or baking soda work (well, not at the
> same time)?
>
> Look forward to any thoughts!
>
> John-In-Toronto

I doubt it. People and paper packages are able to contain reasonable amounts
of vinegar and baking soda without suffering great harm.

It might be possible, and I really do not know, to use sodium carbonate, not
bicarbonate, to produce a stronger base. Between fingers it certainly has a
soapy feel close to that of a dilute lye solution as it dissolves and
emulsifies the skin of your fingers.

Bill

[Pat Kight]

JMorris wrote:
> Hi there!
>
> I'm a Dad who is getting ready to visit a cottage with his daughter
> and other relatives. Thinking about maybe trying to make some paper.
> And have some nice downloads from the web for this.
>
> Wondering if we could do this directly from grasses or wood. Maybe
> some old rotton poplar trees. Mash 'em up, boil 'em up and then you
> can do the paper thing.
>
> YOUR QUESTION (Mr./Ms. Phelps!): To make paper you need to get the
> lignin glue out of the fibers. Apparently either a strong acid or a
> strong base will do this. Typically, in a hobby type situation, you
> would use lye.
>
> Is it possible to use something a little less dangerous. I mean,
> having to wear gloves and goggles doesn't sound like much fun.
>
> Would lemon juice or vinegar or baking soda work (well, not at the
> same time)?
>
> Look forward to any thoughts!

Paper making from wood is, as you note, a messy process that requires
strong chemicals. Lemon juice and vinegar probably won't do the trick.
It also requires high temperatures, and that alone poses some risks.

A better choice for kids might be making paper from ... paper!

Gather up junk mail and other recyclable paper (not the glossy magazine
stuff, which is coated with clay), an old blender you won't want to use
for food again, a piece of window screen in a wooden frame and a large,
flat tub (Rubbermaid makes some flat storage boxes that work great for this.

Tear the paper into small pieces (a good job for kids!) and whir it up
in the blender with a couple of cups of water till it turns to a
grey-ish pulp. If you want to color it, add torn pieces of common
colored construction paper.

Fill the tub half-full of water and stir in the pulp mixture. Keep
stirring while you slip the screen under the water and pulp and bring it
straight up to catch a screenful of pulp. Let it drain for a while, then
turn it out onto a dish towel or some other absorbent surface; continue
drying in the sun and - voila! Instant paper (although the first few
attempts will probably be more like cardboard in texture). You can add
leaves, grasses, flower petals, seeds and other things into the pulp, or
press it into the surface of the wet paper, to make "nature paper."

This is a great outdoor activity and one kids really seem to like. My
description is sketchy, but you can find more detailed ones by googling
for "handmade paper" and "instructions".

Have fun!

--
Pat Kight

[Frank Martin]

I remember in my lost youth, making paper pulp from old good-quality paper
churned up in a blender. Then a stocking stretched over a frame was used to
make the paper itself.
"JMorris" > wrote in message
om...
> Hi there!
>
> I'm a Dad who is getting ready to visit a cottage with his daughter
> and other relatives. Thinking about maybe trying to make some paper.
> And have some nice downloads from the web for this.
>
> Wondering if we could do this directly from grasses or wood. Maybe
> some old rotton poplar trees. Mash 'em up, boil 'em up and then you
> can do the paper thing.
>
> YOUR QUESTION (Mr./Ms. Phelps!): To make paper you need to get the
> lignin glue out of the fibers. Apparently either a strong acid or a
> strong base will do this. Typically, in a hobby type situation, you
> would use lye.
>
> Is it possible to use something a little less dangerous. I mean,
> having to wear gloves and goggles doesn't sound like much fun.
>
> Would lemon juice or vinegar or baking soda work (well, not at the
> same time)?
>
> Look forward to any thoughts!
>
> John-In-Toronto

[David Lloyd-Jones]

> wrote
>>
>>Is it possible to use something a little less dangerous. I mean,
>>having to wear gloves and goggles doesn't sound like much fun.
>>


John,

I would have thought that wearing gloves and goggles would add
greatly to the kids' fun, convincing them that they were doing
something really industrial grade, and not some silly play-skool
set-up game.

-dlj.

[David Lloyd-Jones]

Pat Kight wrote:
>
> A better choice for kids might be making paper from ... paper!
>
> Gather up junk mail and other recyclable paper (not the glossy magazine
> stuff, which is coated with clay), an old blender you won't want to use
> for food again, a piece of window screen in a wooden frame and a large,
> flat tub (Rubbermaid makes some flat storage boxes that work great for
> this.
>
> Tear the paper into small pieces (a good job for kids!) and whir it up
> in the blender with a couple of cups of water till it turns to a
> grey-ish pulp. If you want to color it, add torn pieces of common
> colored construction paper.


Pat,

Any child too dopey to see through this fraud deserves, well,
deserves to be subjected to such a fraud.

-dlj.

[JMorris]

Pat,

Thanks for your quick reply!

Actually, I've done a bit of research and was aware of the whole
"recovery of pre-processed fibres" thing. And my daughter in fact has
done that at school and enjoyed it. However, I was wondering about
doing it for real -- how fibres can be obtained from real wood. My
question I guess is really about chemistry and about how strong baking
soda is, or alternatively on the other side of the ph spectrum, lemon
juice. Or perhaps there are other recipes?

Any more ideas about this will be much appreciated!

Thanks,

John

> Paper making from wood is, as you note, a messy process that requires
> strong chemicals. Lemon juice and vinegar probably won't do the trick.
> It also requires high temperatures, and that alone poses some risks.
>
> A better choice for kids might be making paper from ... paper!
>
> Gather up junk mail and other recyclable paper (not the glossy magazine
> stuff, which is coated with clay), an old blender you won't want to use
> for food again, a piece of window screen in a wooden frame and a large,
> flat tub (Rubbermaid makes some flat storage boxes that work great for this.
>
> Tear the paper into small pieces (a good job for kids!) and whir it up
> in the blender with a couple of cups of water till it turns to a
> grey-ish pulp. If you want to color it, add torn pieces of common
> colored construction paper.
>
> Fill the tub half-full of water and stir in the pulp mixture. Keep
> stirring while you slip the screen under the water and pulp and bring it
> straight up to catch a screenful of pulp. Let it drain for a while, then
> turn it out onto a dish towel or some other absorbent surface; continue
> drying in the sun and - voila! Instant paper (although the first few
> attempts will probably be more like cardboard in texture). You can add
> leaves, grasses, flower petals, seeds and other things into the pulp, or
> press it into the surface of the wet paper, to make "nature paper."
>
> This is a great outdoor activity and one kids really seem to like. My
> description is sketchy, but you can find more detailed ones by googling
> for "handmade paper" and "instructions".
>
> Have fun!

[Steve Turner]

(JMorris) wrote:

>My
>question I guess is really about chemistry and about how strong baking
>soda is [...]

The answer to this part is: very, very weak (relative to lye). Some
10,000 - 100,000 times weaker. Sodium carbonate (washing soda) is
intermediate between lye and baking soda, but almost certainly still
too weak to have much effect on lignins.

Steve Turner

Real address contains worldnet instead of spamnet

[David Lloyd-Jones]

JMorris wrote:
> Pat,
>
> Thanks for your quick reply!

John,

You don't seem to have replied to my note. I hope you are quite
clear that I think Pat is your children's enemy.

-dlj.

[Bonjour Voisins]

In article >,
says...

>Any more ideas about this will be much appreciated!

Pat gave you the reasons your attempts at
doing it from wood pulp will fail. If you're
bound and determined to manufacture from
scratch, maybe parchment or papyrus would
be a more viable process. The historical aspect alone
should make it a worthwhile pursuit, I think.
And certainly the finished product would
be more lasting than ordinary pulp paper.

[dave e]

(JMorris) wrote in message >...

> YOUR QUESTION (Mr./Ms. Phelps!): To make paper you need to get the
> lignin glue out of the fibers. Apparently either a strong acid or a
> strong base will do this. Typically, in a hobby type situation, you
> would use lye.
>
> Is it possible to use something a little less dangerous. I mean,
> having to wear gloves and goggles doesn't sound like much fun.
>
> Would lemon juice or vinegar or baking soda work (well, not at the
> same time)?
>
> Look forward to any thoughts!
>
> John-In-Toronto

John,
I wouldn't write off a particular experiment just because it
requires gloves and goggles. Based on your daughter's age and
maturity, your own level of comfort and chemical experience, and on
the particular experimental procedures, decide if the procedure will
be sufficiently safe even WITH the recommended safety equipment. If
it is, and if the project is one you think will be interesting to both
of you, then do it.

In any case, proper use of safety equipment is a good lesson for
children to learn at all ages.

Dave

[dave e]

(JMorris) wrote in message >...

> YOUR QUESTION (Mr./Ms. Phelps!): To make paper you need to get the
> lignin glue out of the fibers. Apparently either a strong acid or a
> strong base will do this. Typically, in a hobby type situation, you
> would use lye.
>
> Is it possible to use something a little less dangerous. I mean,
> having to wear gloves and goggles doesn't sound like much fun.
>
> Would lemon juice or vinegar or baking soda work (well, not at the
> same time)?
>
> Look forward to any thoughts!
>
> John-In-Toronto

John,
I wouldn't write off a particular experiment just because it
requires gloves and goggles. Based on your daughter's age and
maturity, your own level of comfort and chemical experience, and on
the particular experimental procedures, decide if the procedure will
be sufficiently safe even WITH the recommended safety equipment. If
it is, and if the project is one you think will be interesting to both
of you, then do it.

In any case, proper use of safety equipment is a good lesson for
children to learn at all ages.

Dave

[Sonya Cirillo]

Bonjour Voisins wrote:
> In article >,
> says...
>
>
>>Any more ideas about this will be much appreciated!
>
>
> Pat gave you the reasons your attempts at
> doing it from wood pulp will fail. If you're
> bound and determined to manufacture from
> scratch, maybe parchment or papyrus would
> be a more viable process. The historical aspect alone
> should make it a worthwhile pursuit, I think.
> And certainly the finished product would
> be more lasting than ordinary pulp paper.
>
>
>
>
Another aside to this - since papyrus is somewhat rare in the US - other
plant materials can be used. . . I managed to find one on the net - they
use grass/straw: http://www.cs.uiowa.edu/~jones/prairiepaper.html

Several years back I'd read a book from the library on paper making -
and after the recycled paper part was a chapter on using plant materials
like cattails and sunflower stalks - so that's a possibility to look into.

But even if you do the recycled paper bit - it would be very interesting
to add flowers and leaves found in the area to 'decorate' the paper -
you can add to it by teaching the names of the different plants. It's
amazing how many folks don't know the name of various plants that
surround them everyday!

Good luck in finding the instructions you want!

Sonya

[Pat Kight]

David Lloyd-Jones wrote:
> JMorris wrote:
>
>> Pat,
>>
>> Thanks for your quick reply!
>
>
> John,
>
> You don't seem to have replied to my note. I hope you are quite clear
> that I think Pat is your children's enemy.

How very amusing.

John, I rummaged through my bookmarks and found some instructions which
may be closer to what you were looking for:

http://www.bluep.com/~stiffe/instructions.html

See the "making paper from plants" tutorials.

The author - an artist who makes hand-made paper (and who doesn't sneer
at doing so from recycled fiber, but never mind) suggests a number of
non-wood plant fibers - stems, leaves and even flowers - suitable for
paper-making, and provides clear instructions, complete with safety tips.

You're not going to get there with baking soda and lemon juice, but if
you feel comfortable with your child using more caustic materials, you
can in fact do this.

Be safe,

--
Pat Kight